My high school Latin teacher (1960’s) taught us that there was an “upper-class” Latin as well as a “vulger” (working-class) Latin. The spelling and pronunciations could be somewhat different. According to Mr. Teacher, one difference was High-Latin would pronounce the “w” sound in place of the “v” sound and that the upper class also affected a lisp. If true, this would be a linguistic basis for for the Castilian or whatever lisp. But of course I now know that virtually everything I was taught in school was basically MADE UP. :rolleyes:
It does provide me with a favorite Latin joke, since, if that’s the case, Caesar never actually said - "Veni, Vedi, Vici " (I came, I saw, I conquered.) What he would have said was - "Weeni, Weedi, Weet-thi 
I’m pretty sure I heard people ceceando in Catalonia. When they spoke Spanish, of course, as opposed to Catalan.
I am NOT contradicting Colibri, although I heard the same story when I took Spanish. However, if you do a little research/reading about the later members of the Hapsburg family, you will understand why/how such an explanation could come to be.
It may well have been a veiled sneer at the effete nobility back in Spain by people in the Americas, on the same order as the reference in “Yankee Doodle” to macaronis (British men of the leisured class who were following the high fashion in masculine couture [COLOR=DarkOliveGreen](correct ending for the masculine version, Francophones?))[/COLOR].
[Pontius Pilate]Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly![/Pontius Pilate]
Why is this a joke?
Actually, so far as I know, the pronunciation would be more like [weni wedi wiki] “waynee waydee weekee”
My understanding is that in standard Spanish “B” or “V” both stand for the same phoneme, which has two expressions –
- a bilabial fricative (IPA “beta” symbol) between vowels, and
- a bilabial plosive ** otherwise
And I heard it in Valencia as well (when people spoke Spanish and not Valencian, the local dialect of Catalan).
My wife, who speaks Italian (amongst many other languages) has been learning Spanish recently. She remarked that the ‘th’ sound on ci- and ce- words in Spanish correspond exactly with the ‘ch’ sound in ci- and ce- in Italian.
And #1 includes initial-b immediately following a word with a final vowel, as in the town of La Vega in the Dom. Rep. The deal is the two letters both represent the same phoneme, just as z and c[i/e] do, as opposed to having one or the other firmly assigned. And in everyday speech it is so indistinct that nobody will pay attention if you swap the soft-b vs. the hard-b.
OTOH, I have become ever more conscious of an apparent Caribbean/Mexican tendency to pronounced ALL instances of B or V with the nonstandard labiodental “English-V”, enunciating it very clearly so. Can’t tell if it’s just that my ears got tuned to the sound after the many years in English-speaking environments and it had been there all along or if it’s really a recent phonetic drift.
Well see, they were speaking Castilian (NOT Spanish! There is no such language in my opinion) so they were “lisping”. They do not do this when they speak Catalan or Valencian. That’s what I meant. Sheeesh, you guys!
Really, what most people consider “Spanish” is just the dialect spoken in Castilia and Leon. The German language is like this also. The “Hochdeutsch” you hear from the German news is really an “artificial” language. It is only spoken as the local dialect in a small area of Niedersachsen. A Bavarian who only speaks Ober-Bayrisch, will have trouble communicating with someone from Hamburg who only speaks Plattduetsch. Some linguist in Germany say that people who speak their local dialect and Hochdeutsch can almost be considered bilingual. I grew up speaking the Hessian dialect, and I can tell you it was hard work learning to speak Hochdeutsch.
Wow, are you serious?
You would pronounce the c or z as a th to distinguish? I find that really funny. Akin to someon in America putting on a fake british accent to distinguish some words. I would have never thought that. Nobody would say… “Cazar, como matar animales” instead of saying cathar?
I don’t know if its that exagerated. They don’t lisp while speaking Catalan or Valencian because it actually is a different language, but I think Latin American Spanish isn’t like the difference between German dialects. Those are really difficult to understand for someone who only speaks Hochdeutsch. But I only speak Castillian Spanish, and I can pretty much understand Mexicans or people from Latin America with little problems. Its true that there are huge differences across any language, but I think German has to be one of the most extreme. I think Spanish could be considered dialects. Imagine the difficulty of someone from the deep south going to Scotland or England trying to understand someone with a Cockney accent. That is always considered the same language. I don’t think Spanish is any worse than English there, but German is much worse. Most Germans can’t understand Swiss German.
Cite?
What we read as a V is actually a Latin U in the form most commonly used in carved inscriptions. The pointed and rounded forms of the letters came to represent different sounds in order to represent the Germanic “V” sound which wasn’t present in the original Latin. The pronunciation of “Veni, Vedi, Vici” is clearer if you write it as “Ueni, Uedi, Uici” (also understanding that Latin C’s are always a hard K sound).
This online encyclopedia (not Wikipedia) differentiates between Castilian and Latin American Spanish.
This company that does professional translations differentiates between Castilian and Latin American Spanish.
The University of Oxford has the following to say:
in it’s information for undergraduates.
The School of Modern Languages at the University of Liverpool has this to say about theit module Spanish Linguistics:
The University of California, San Diego has this to say:
However, I guess I did exaggerate a little, because the text continues:
Still, Spain has four officially recognized languages: Castilian, Euskara, Catalan, and Galician. Some of the other major dialects are: Aragonese, Asturian, Caló, Valencian (usually considered a dialect of Catalan), Extremaduran, Gascon and Occitan. Most linguists also differentiate Castilian Spanish and Latin American Spanish. The difference is smaller than the difference between American English and British English, or even Brazilian Portuguese and Lusitanian Portuguese, but there is still a difference. And what some perceive as a “lisp” is typical of Castilian, and only of Castilian.
Do you need more cites?
Much as in English - compare car, cucumber, coat with cede, cite
What’s really fun in Italian vs English is the ‘reversal’ in pronunciation where c’e is pronounced “chay” and che is pronounced “kay”
end of hi-chack
It’s used frequently in school when they’re teaching kids how to spell the words and giving dictations. They would also give the context, a phrase or sentence, but it’s another way to clue the kids on how to write it correctly, even if you never again pronounce it that way. In everyday usage, a Caribbean Spanish speaker that pronounces z (because of the believe it is better than the other way), may be suffering from ultracorrección.
Mycroft, I think I see what you mean… that people consider Castilian Spanish as the “true” Spanish. I think there is such thing as a Spanish language, just with multiple dialects and accents. Which one you learned depends on where you live and study, but someone speaking proper (note, I didn’t mention popular or slang) Spanish in Mexico is going to be very well understood by someone in Argentina, Puerto Rico, or Spain.
It might be mentioned that even in Latin America, castellano is very often used instead of español to indicate the name of the language in general, rather than merely the dialect of Spain. I have probably been asked more often if I spoke castellano than español here in Panama, by people whose own Spanish was not remotely like proper Castilian.
Well, yeah. We were discussing Spanish/Castilian, not Catalan. Which made it kind of odd to say that they don’t cecear in those regions of the country. It’s kind of like saying they don’t say “soft drink” in Quebec because they speak French. (Well, they do when they’re speaking English.)
I understand completely. I should have made my meaning more clear. What I meant was that people cecear when they are speaking Castilian, and not when they are speaking Asturian, Occitan, Valencian, etc. Also, they do not cecear when they are speaking Latin American Spanish.
My specialty is Brazilian Portuguese, and in my opinion the difference between Brazilian Portuguese and Lusitanian Portuguese is a lot bigger than the difference between Castilian and Latin American Spanish, and the two variants of Portuguese are not really considered different languages, so you can’t really say that Castilian and Latin American Spanish are two different languages.
Another interesting language is Papiamento, spoken in the Dutch ABC islands (Aruba, Bonaire and Curaçao). This contains many elements of sixteenth century Spanish, along with Portuguese, Dutch, French, African, Amerindian and English influences. For instance, the “b” and “v” with the same sound that JRDelirious mentioned, lead to phrases like “Feliz aña nobo” (Happy New Year), “nobenta” (ninety), and “Con ta bai?” (How are you) in Papiamento.