Italian (and Rumanian) took a different root. When /k/ palatalized due to the influence of a following /j/, it moved forward to /tS/.
Not directed at jjimm, but, can we PLEASE stop calling /T/ “th” a lisp! A lisp is a speech impediment. The pronunciation of Castillian c before i and e and z before all vowels is NOT a lisp. It’s simply how they pronounce those letters in those positions. Lisps don’t always sound like a “th”. Mine which is occasional comes out as a whistle! Please stop throwing that bit of misinformation around, even if you put it in double quotes.
The expert has arrived.
First of all many languages are spoken in spain: Andaluz, Gallego, Vasco, Castellano.
In spanish we call our language castellano. In school they taught me that we call it that way because the language originated in Castilla.-
Forget about the differences between Latin American Spanish and Spain spanish. First of all those differences are minimun, (most have to do with the acccent). Second of all because there is no such thing as “Latin American Spanish”. An Argentinian doesn’t speak spanih the same way a peruvian or a mexican does.
The best example is the use of the second person of the singular (tu), an argentinian or an uruguayan never use tu we use vos.
Example: A colombian would ask: ¿(tu) tienes un paquete de cigarrillos? an Uruguayan: ¿(Vos) Tenés un paquete de cigarrillos?
And that is the major difference, of course there are minor ones. Conisdering that 43% argentinians descends from italians we have incorporated a lot of italian words into our language (it’s called Lunfardo).
Well you might call yourself that. What are your credentials?
Yes, that has been firmly established, and it’s also often called “Spanish” because it originates in Spain, the country called “España”. All of my dictionaries list “español” as correct as well as Castellano.
I think that’s a bit silly to say “disregard the difference between Latin American Spanish and Spain Spanish”, because I can tell you first hand that a Spaniard and A Mexican will tell you there’s a huge difference between the way the two talk. It’s like telling an American and a person from the UK to “disregard the difference” between their dialects.
I’m not sure i get it. You first say disregard the difference between Latin American Spanish and Spanish from Spain. Then you go on to point out how different the Spanish of Peru, Argentina, and Mexico are. If we note how different the latter three are, then why should we disregard the former two?
No, an Argentinian doesn’t speak Spanish the same way as a Mexican does. Within Mexico they don’t speak the same way state to state. The accent of Oaxaca is different from that of Querétaro. However usage of Spanish is different enough between Spain and the countries of Latin America to divide up Latin American Spanish (indicating the dialects of Latin America) from those of Spain.
I kind of question the formal distinction between Latin American and Spanish Spanish on the grounds of being exclusionary. Don’t forget the Carribean islands; it’s quite enough different to get its own subclassification. There’s also a very pronounced difference in the United States’ use of Spanish if you consider the multi-generationals (not the recent immigrants).
I guess to be all huffy about it, you could say “Spanish as is typical in much of Latin America,” or “…as in the USA,” “…as in the islands,” or, “as in Spain.”
I’m not a native speaker of Spanish, so I think that precisely gives me the advantage to comment of the “compatability” of the different Spanishes: the Spanish (movies I see, people I met in Niagara Falls) have that tell-tale thing we don’t want to call a lisp. Aside from that, they’re perfectly intelligible. Mexico is perfectly intelligible, except for sometimes the peasant pidgeons, but Mexci is my leaning/stomping grounds. Spanish TV in the US has Spanish-speakers from all over Latin America. Most of them are intelligible, although Cubans and Puerto Ricans give me trouble due to their not speaking in complete words, rather than for their lexicon and grammar.
Essentially, the lexicon and grammar are identical, less certain local variations (like I guess I can’t say hembra in Venezuela, thank you Microsoft). This is like English English and United States English and Canadian English. They’re all recognizable, but they all have sub-elements to them, too. A Newfy sounds like someone from Europe, but Ontario-ians sound like Michiganders except they inflect every sentance such that they come out sounding like questions. It’s all the same language, though.
I never said that español is wrong. Castellano is a better word becasue it’s more specific. But if you want to use the español instead people will understand you.-
There is not a huge difference between an average mexican speaker and spanish speaker. As english is not my mother language I can’t discuss the “huge difference” between american english and english english but, IMHO, they don’t seem to be that different.
A good example of huge differences in the way a same language is spoken in two different places is portuguese. There are “huge differences” between the spoken in Portugal and the one spoken in Brasil.
I also have first hand expirience
I remarked which one in opinion is the biggest difference between the spanish that is spoken in my country with the one that is spoken in the rest of the world. The difference, though between them is not “huge”.
Argentina and Uruguay are special cases, as I often said in this boards you have to remember that italian imigration in both countries was huge, I always give the same example: my father is 60 years old, he always tells me that when he was a boy no one in Mar del Plata (one Argentina’s biggest cities) spoke spanish.
Nontheless there, as I said before, there are no “huge differences” between Argentina’s spanish and Spain spanish.
I disagree, in fact this is the first time I hear it so please provide a cite of that difference between Latin American Spanish and Spain spanish. Remember we are not talking about how each one pronounce the z, s or r. That is of no consecuence. Grammar differences is the key… “huge differences”
One such glaring difference is the general loss of the “vosotros” form throughout Latin America and the substitution of “Ustedes.” This is so general that in my Spanish classes in the U.S. we were scarcely taught the “vosotros” forms, since it was expected we would mostly be using our Spanish in Latin America.
A more regional one, found in only a few places in Latin America, is the use of the “vos” form in the Southern Cone and in parts of Central America.
(My perspective is Mexico and US Spanish here)
Well, vosotros isn’t really truly lost. It’s understood and just not used (I hope the day comes when either tu or usted dies into the same fashion.) The Bible in Spanish, for example, uses vosotros all over the place. European movies obviously don’t get re-filmed for the N./S. American markets to eliminate vosotros either.
In any case, this isn’t a grammar issue at all, but a question of usage.
Vosotros is not used in Caribbean (or at least Puerto Rican) Spanish. Tú is the less formal second person pronoun, usted is the formal one. Even in church.
But like other one said, that’s not grammar, that’s usage. And you’ll find little or no grammar variation thanks to the existence of the Real Academia de la Lengua Española and the 20 or so country-based academies, all of whom meet and decide what’s the correct grammar, syntax, and formal norms of the language (although it may take them years to decide on stuff).
I said it was generally not used, not that it wasn’t used in any circumstances. And if the only place it is regularly used is in the Bible or in church, that’s like saying American English uses “thee” and “thine” forms just because they appear in the Bible and Shakespeare, and are used by Quakers.
Vosotros is not merely “less popular.” I can say that I don’t recall ever having heard it used by a Panamanian. (Of course, I don’t go to Mass.)
Please define the difference between “grammar” and “usage.” If one grammatical form (vosotros) has essentially been entirely replaced by another (ustedes), that seems to me to be a grammatical change, even if people still understand the meaning of the original.
What does the Academy have to say on the subject of the “correctness” of the use of ustedes in place of vosotoros?
If you had said this BEFORE we wouldn’t have had this misunderstanding.
Well, since pronunciation is “of no consequence” to you, i can’t help you there. Even though pronunciation is generally what sets American and Canadian and British and Australian and New Zealand and South African dialects (among others) apart from each other (When in fact the grammatical differences among the various Englishes are minor, as you say with Spanish).
What i’m trying to say is that it’s NOT just grammar that makes a “huge difference”. An American from California uses the same grammar and mostly the same lexicon (except slang and regionalisms) as someone from Boston, but out accents are different and this distinguishes each dialect from each other. That can HARDLY be of “no consequence”. THATS what my point was.
If you were talking merely of grammatical differences then no there are no “huge differences” but then again, I never claimed there were. I was looking at the whole picture rather than a detail as you seem to be.
[quote[I remarked which one in opinion is the biggest difference between the spanish that is spoken in my country with the one that is spoken in the rest of the world. The difference, though between them is not “huge”. [/quote]
Grammatically no, the difference is not huge. However what sets your dialect apart is the use of vos for tú, as well as slang and sayings from Italian immigrants. Slang is often a HUGE factor in setting apart dialects from one another. You cannot call that inconsequential.
Mexican Spanish has many indigenous words and a few of their own sayings. Can you call that inconsequential? no, you cannot. If you do call it inconsequential i’ll immediately dismiss everything you’ve said, because that signifies you’re just being contrary.
Huge number of differences, no. A usage of the Spanish informal plural for the informal singular, yes that IS a huge difference.
Again, pronunciation IS of consequence. You cannot speak of dialects and disregard pronunciation, intonation and accent. That is foolish.
I never claimed that there is a strict Latin American Dialect and there is a strict Spanish dialect. You seem to be saying that I am. What I’m saying is that there are some differences with the Spanish dialects of Latin America and those of central and northern Spain.
Something you need to clear up, what exactly do you mean by “HUGE” differences? That’s quite a value statement that can mean anything. Explain yourself.
Really? Because when I was in San José Buenavista in Querétaro, I never heard the vosotros form at all in church. The Priest used “ustedes”. I never heard it among the towns people, I never heard it in the main city Santiago de Querétaro either. I never heard vosotros used with the elders in the town, and I never heard my compañeros from the University there use it with the elders either.
I DID however hear it from one person. My professor’s wife who is a Spaniard.
Actually, her use of vosotros and her use of /T/ made a very stupid classmate from the university there mock her behind her back.
I’ve also asked friends of mine who are of Mexican heritage explain why they don’t use “vosotros” and the verb forms of it. They say it sounds snobby and contrived when they hear someone using it.
I’m referring by grammar to differences in spelling, mostly. For example, the different types of grammar variations between words in American vs British English (or the small ones I’ve seen of Portuguese vs. Brazilian Portuguese). I apologize if it caused confusion.
On the second type, I assume the academy believes both are correct, and leaves it to the countries to settle the form they want the most.
*Checks in http://www.rae.es/ . * The consult is closed on weekends (the part I was trying to search). The dictionaries say that both are used as second personal pronouns, usted as the one the that is more formal.
Oh, and the dictionaries are cool. They have a scan of every dictionary from the 18th century to today. It’s cool to see how the words change from that time to now (although it is still understandable).
Please note that I do believe there are differences between the Spanish spoken in different regions of the world. For me there is a language, Spanish, that is found (spoken, used) in many dialects. Despite the differences, they are not different languages, since a correctly spoken (and using the correct vocabulary) formal phrase or presentation given in Mexican Spanish would be understandable with little or no problem by someone speaking Argentinian Spanish.
Spanish is like french. Ud is the second person of plural but it’s also the formal first person of singular, in that respect Usted/ustedes is similar to vous.
You have me there I really don’t know a lot about the caribbean I can speak for Spain, (I ve never been to spain but I love Televisión Española), and South America.
I made one example it’s also use in extremely formal situations like in law. Law is by definition a formal buissness (for example: a judge is adressed as “Vuestra Señoria” or “Vuestra Excelencia” according to rank).
With all due respect if that is your point then you don’t have a point. You claimed that there are “huge differences” between Spain Spanish and Latin American Spanish, differences that in your mind created two distinct dialects. If those differences are pronunciaton and slang I am sorry to tell you my friend but there not two distinct spanish dialects… there are thousands.
I think the problem between you and me Dooebieus is your usage of the word dialect. In spanish, at least, it means more than merely a difference in pronunciation.
It isn’t for a number of reasons. First of al because tu is also used, it’s less popular but it’s used. Second because the use of vos is not universal even in Argentina, as an example the best way to spot a person born in Santiago del Estero (a province of northern Argentina) is because he’ll never use vos, he’ll use tu.
Again if by dialects you mean differences in pronunciation, intonation or slang then there are differences, “huge” ones.
The differences that I am looking for are best explained with examples: “Low german” (the language spoken in holland), has, imho, huge differences with “High German”.
I am not a good catholic so I can’t remember “church dialogues” but you are lucky my grandmother is right here so I can give you an example (it will be in the form of a dialoge):
Priest: El Señor este con vosotros .-
Congregation: Y con tu espiritu.-
Priest: Podeis ir en paz
I forgot to add something for your spiritual tranquility Dooebius, according to my grandmother some priest (hippies, comunist and drug adicts in her opinion) replace vosotros with Ud. But nevermind them because they belong to Satan
Okay, I’m the one that said grammar and usage are different. The non-use of vosotros isn’t an element of grammar; in fact, it still exists in the grammer. It’s just not used, hence usage. The rules of grammar still apply and are observed. If someone chooses to use vosotros and uses it wrong, then they can right be corrected. Just like if I were to say “thou porridge is cold.” – I said that wrong.
I think the church comments are justified by something else I mentioned – the Spanish Catholic bible uses vosotros quite extensively. The priest generally isn’t going to say vosotros to those that attend the misa, because that isn’t general usage. But if he makes a reference to the Bible, he’ll use that form. For practical purposes, thee/thou/thy is dead in English because it’s only found in the Bible, even though the rules/grammar still exist. But vosotros isn’t depricated; it’s just not used.
Can someone from Mexico that’s a product of Mexican schools here tell us whether the vosotros form is taught in school, even if it’s only for the sake of competeness? Well, any Latin American school would be fine. I bet that it is taught, even if it’s only for familiarization in the fourth grade.
