And the walls is supposed to be proof against the catapults.
Guess PJ really want stuff to be collapsing for it to be called a valid siege scene (or he was afraid that the audience couldn’t accept it)
That’s what I forgot! The siege…
First, Gondor looks beautiful, like something out of Maxfield Parrish. (and I like the art nouveau touches and the Mucha influence–all of these were contemporaneous with Tolkien–nice job, art director!). It does look small next to the PF, though. And the outpost (don’t make me go look it up) looks like a child’s toy.
Still, the levels of the city are impressive, as is the architecture. And then this massive ant swarm comes. IMO, there is no way Gondor could ever have held off the orcs etc, given the size of the army and the size of the city. PJ shows massive bits of masonry being gouged out of the walls. 15 minutes of that and the city is yours. 
:dubious: But if he had left that bit about the walls in (and all Gandalf would have to do is say it aloud–the enchantment or whatever re the walls won’t hold out forever, we need to fight!–and then it would have been cool to see the orcs regroup and THEN catapult the heads into the city…)
Very Big Irk.
Well, they do show the pike-Orcs panicking and dropping the pikes when they behold the fury of the charging Rohirrim.
It could happen this way, I don’t think bravery or discipline are generally Orc strong points.
Yes, whatever else is in the Mordor benefits package (Medical, pension, etc) the dental plan clearly sucks.
That one bugged me, too. If elves get to have super-human dexterity, the dwarves at the very least should have super-human constitution. Plus, it would have been much funnier to have Legolas falling-down drunk.
Unfortunately, Legolas tends to fall back to his “ballet roots” when drunk, and not falling down. Tends to spoil the somber mood Gandalf is trying to promote (in order to prod the folks of Middle Earth off their butts, vis-a-vis Mordor).
Which is actually the bigger problem - Theoden needed no prodding - nor did he need to see the beacons - he had already recieved the red arrow and left directly from Helms Deep toward Gondor - gathering forces along the way.
The Ents needed no prodding - atleast not “trickery” by mischevious hobbits - they just needed to decide when - not IF - to act.
Why is it PJ decided to leave out that everyone was aware of Saron’s eye and the dark that was approaching and decide that everyone needed to be convinced to fight?
What everybody misses about this scene (if you mean the Helm’s Deep charge) is that Eomer and Gandalf timed their charge to precisely coincide with the sun cresting that ridge, and the orcs’ pike line falls apart at the precise instant that the sun’s rays hit their eyes (they’re a species which doesn’t like sunlight too much). Rewatch the scene and pay attention to that.
Yup, I noted that all right - but it still doesn’t explain the physics of what happens when a herd of charging horsemen going at full gallop down a steep hill run smack into a densly packed mass of Orcs at the bottom - panicked that instant or not.
There simply isn’t room for anything other than a godawful pile-up.
Actually I was thinking of the Pelennor Fields charge and I assumed eleanorigby was too, my apologies if I got that wrong.
Your description of the Helm’s Deep charge is correct, and I agree with Malthus that there just doesn’t seem to be enough room at the bottom of that hill.
It’s my impression that the seperate nations and races had their own opinions and priorities in how to fight Sauron, and Gandalfs role is to somehow get them into a more cohesive force. Divided, they would fall.
While there had been several “Grand Alliances” in the past, the end of the Third Age the races all seemed much more divided initially. (I dunno if Sauron had a hand in that, through trickery via spies and turncoats.)
Gandalf, not owing allegiance to any one particular territory or race, may have been better able to keep his eye on the bigger picture. For example, Gandalf (as well as the Elves) sensed the danger behind trying to use the One Ring, while a lot of the others did not.
No, you were right–I was in Gondor. I agree re the light and doesn’t Gandalf do his flashlight bit with his staff in that HD charge?
oh, something else I remembered, after reading all y’all’s posts:
I loved the catapulting heads bit. It’s more horrifying when you read about it in the book, but I’m so glad they left it in. The orcs et.al were trying to demoralize Minas Tirith, and that action alludes to that.
I also really liked the acting by those portraying Frodo, and Sam in the scenes on Mount Doom. Excellent.
I’ll probably be still remembering more little things I liked and disliked long after this thread dies.
While that is very well true - Theoden needed no convinceing to ride to Gondor - prior to Helms Deep, he recieved the Red Arrow and immediately upon finsihng the business there set out for Gondor - hoping not to be too late. There was no need to prod him along or wait for beacons - his aid had been called for and he was on the way.
Same with TreeBeard - he didnt need to be tricked to head toward Sauroman’s tower, he knew what was afoot, and needed no convincing upon the right course of action.
ok, last time, I swear:
While I dislike how the rousing of the Ents was portrayed, I liked the beacons. In the film I think they substituted for the arrow - Which in the film would have required much too much exposition for the non-book reader.
Tangentially, I missed Ghan-buri-gan, but again the exposition would not have been worth it for the fanboy satisfaction.
I much prefer the beacons to the red arrow–visually, it’s much more dramatic. That there now seems to be several continents between Gondor and Edoras is a minor detail (and irk). On the big screen, the beacon scene made me tear up. It does lose its impact on my laptop.
One last pleases: the movie action starts with a shot of Bilbo, in his chair, working on his book. I like the symmetry of Frodo then sitting there, putting in his bit.
I could have done without the goodbye scene as Frodo et al go to the Gray Havens and the “well, I’m home” or whatever Sams says.
More pleases that I haven’t mentioned yet: the score. Amazing. It fits the mood and the story very well.
Final Tally (for me): PJ got a lot of stuff right. What he got right, he got very right. I am willing to fill in (I can even see the apothecary in my head and play the scene with Aragorn etc) and accept/gloss over where he didn’t. It’s a miracle the films were made at all–to have had it made into one film the way it was first proposed would have been criminal.
Trolls.
At Bilbo’s birthday party, he’s telling the story about the three monstrous trolls who are turned to stone when the sunlight hits them. Later, when Frodo is suffering a morgul blade wound, we see the three stone trolls in the background.
However, we see trolls standing atop the black gate, in daylight bright enough to cast shadow from the Southron soldiers. There are also trolls at the battles of Minas Tirith and Pellenor fields and none of those trolls turn to stone from sunlight. I don’t recall if the trolls were outside in the daylight in the books or not, but PJ could have digitally darkened the sky more.
No need, those trolls were the Black Trolls and could handle daylight. The ones Bilbo ran into were a more basic, older type of troll that were commonly referred to as Stone Trolls.
Dear God, I love this place. 
We do have no shortage of Tolkien experts here at the Dope and then there is **QtM ** who is a step above us.
The beacons are book canon - Pippin and Gandalf see them going off as they are haring down to Minas Tirith on Shadowfax. PJ’s improvement :rolleyes: here was to make Denethor too much of a senile drooler to give the order to light them, so Pippin had to light the City beacon by subterfuge. Yet another gratuitous piece of invention that explains why Tolkien’s own work had to be cut short in order to keep the film manageably short.