Live and let live in ignorance?

Great Debates
1

I want this to be a discussion about where to draw the line in our fight against ignorance. I’m hoping this will help me collect my thoughts. I apologize in advance if I sound arrogant when I equate belief in religion with ignorance–in the entirety of my experience and in the case I am faced with this is correct, and if you would like to further my education, feel free, just not in this thread.

I guess I should give just a little background. When my parents married, my mom’s side of the family was very religious (a Korean branch of Christianity) while my father’s side was just Buddhist by tradition. my father “converted”, and I attended church regularly since birth. when I started to think for myself, I found it hard to shrug off years of repeated teachings, but the inner skeptic never dies, and soon I was convinced, if not quite confident, in my atheist views. Still I had to hide this from my mom for several years.

The church with which my mom and grandma are involved is ridiculously big (70,000 people every sunday, as well as services almost every other day of the week) and as far as I can tell, benevolent. The people behind it aren’t the kinds of scamming TV evangelists you find in America, but people who truly believe what they are doing is good. I have observed some adult services, and besides an annoying over sentimentality, sense of grandeur, and expected sidestepping of the fallacies in the Bible, the pastor avoids fundamentalist, extremist, or dogmatic sermons, which is really better than what I can say for the churches I’ve been to or learned of in America.

So to finally get to my point, can ignorance ever be blissful? Most of my mom’s social circle is in the church, and given the emotional trouble she has had, she really is happiest when she is in the reassuring arms of the church–Religion is her opiate. As I am almost 18, she reluctantly allowed me to make my own choice about god (praying about it every day no doubt), but I’m afraid of the consequences if I were to present her with the arguments that have convinced me. An argument may drive us needlessly apart and hurt her more. Or even worse, a godless and “hopeless” existence may break her. On the other hand, what if she were to make decisions wrongly influenced by her faith (sadly I could sense some dogmatism and holier-than-thou competitiveness in some of her fellows), or even be traumatized by a belated loss of faith?

To rephrase, when a person is holding a benevolent but nonetheless ignorant (and possibly emotionally damaging later on) belief, should you leave them be? What is the best thing I can do for my mom?

2

I think there are two ways (at least two ways) to look at this. First, is she being harmed or harming anyone, and is she likely to suffer harm or harm anyone because of her ignorance? You seem pretty clear that she is not being harmed, in fact, she’s deriving great comfort from this without suffering from even an undue lightening of her wallet. You do seem to have a slight worry that she could possibly suffer in the future, though. I suggest you sit down an examine the likelihood of that, and try and realistically compare that to the certain pain and stress you’ll cause her if you take away her faith. (Even assuming that’s possible - I’ve heard all the atheist arguments in the world, and the most they’ve achieved is to nudge me towards agnosticism. Some of us are wired for religion and some aren’t. When I was a kid raised by atheists, I secretly prayed to trees - nothing at all would stop be from believing in spiritual stuff, although I’m not a church member.)

Secondly, if your places were reversed, what would you wish for her to do in your situation? Would you like her to present you with all her arguments for why the church is a good place and all the mistakes you’re likely to make without the guidance of the church? Or would you prefer she leave you in peace with your decision to not go to church anymore? The Golden Rule is not a religious one: treat her the way you would like to be treated, with respect for your mind and decisions as an adult.

So, to answer the broader question: I draw the fighting ignorance line at causing predictable harm. If our relationship or the life of the person I want to educate will become more painful or harder as a result of my educatin’ them, I may make a single gentle attempt at correction, and then I try very hard to keep my lips sealed until asked for more information.

3

I’ll start off by mentioning that I’m agnostic, but I recognize that churches can do good (sometimes they don’t, but they can). What bad decisions do you think she might make on the basis of her faith? What is the likelihood that she will make those decisions vs. the likelihood that “An argument may drive us needlessly apart and hurt her more. Or even worse, a godless and “hopeless” existence may break her.”? Only you can answer that question. In and of itself I see nothing wrong for someone to be happiest in a church setting provided that church setting isn’t robbing her blind or separating her from the rest of society.

I guess my short answer would be to only challenge her beliefs if those beliefs are causing her harm (I would also challenge beliefs in someone if it makes that person a nuisance to others, but you don’t appear to be suggesting that). Live and let live.

4

It seeems to me it’s more a question for IMHO than for GD, but anyway :
Leave your mother alone. As long as her beliefs don’t have a significantly negative impact on her (or you), don’t challenge her beliefs it they’re making her feels better. Anyway, you wouldn’t be able to convince her.
My mother is sincerely catholic, and so was my ex. Both of them find comfort in their beliefs. Both of them would be distressed if they were to loose their faith (or even doubt it). There’s no way I could have convinced my mother she was mistaken, and concerning my ex it would have been a remote prospect. Neither suffered any damage as a result of their beliefs, beyond the cost of an occasional candle. Both know I’m an atheist, and we simply don’t discuss this issue. Live and let live, I say.

5

How would things be different if instead of being in a “benevolent” church she was in a “fundamentalist, extremist, or dogmatic” one? Would your decision be easier or harder?

6

“When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.” -Mark Twain

I think you should at least be open to the possibility that your mother is wiser and less ignorant than you think she is—maybe even wiser and less ignorant than you, at 17, currently are.

If you were to present her with the arguments that have convinced you, it’s entirely possible that she has encountered them before. Heck, she might even have reasonably good answers to them.

7

I agree. My mother believes in Leprechauns; it was embarrassing when I was young, but now that I’m older I willing to admit that she may have a point and may have reasonably good answers to my questions. I’m having a little more trouble with my father, who believes that putting hot daggers in one’s eyes can improve vision, but I’m sure that any day now that Mark Twain’s adage will prove true.

Pardon me for not rolling my eyes, but the searing pain makes it difficult.

8

There have already been some good answers to this (I hereby endorse the ones that say she’s an adult and should be treated with respect), but here’s an interesting tidbit–I recently learned a little about the influence Christianity (ministers, congregations, etc) had in Korean politics and the development of a more open society and a politically active populace. Fascinating, I had no idea!

9

Let me ask you, to what extent are *you *blissful?

10

Your mother is no more ignorant than you are. As an agnostic, you supposedly know that the truth of god is unknowable. As a Christian, your mother has faith – “the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” As an atheist, I, too, have faith of a kind: a confidence beyond reason that there is no god, which I find tremendously comforting.

What, exactly, does she believe that you know to be untrue? What do you know that she doesn’t? What, exactly, is this “ignorance” whereof you speak?

11

Would you have the same position if she believed in Big Foot or the Loch Ness Monster? The positions that there is no evidence of God, and faith in the existence of God, are not equivalent. The former is the default position for ALL things for which there is no evidence. Religious beliefs don’t get a special dispensation from rational thought.

12

I was going to comment that Nametag’s post was unusually insightful (for this MB anyway) and that it would fly over the head of many here, and here you make my point.

It is juvenile to trot out the tired argument that the existence of Big Foot (FSM etc) is no more compelling that that of an all powerful God who created the universe.

The good news is that it is absolutely not necessary for** Nametag**, me or Mojo Pin’s mom to make this case in this context. None. In fact, Nametag could easily make his claim as an atheist— a belief in God may be his motivation, but it is not necessary to make his point.

The fact is, at best Mojo Pin could only lay siege to his mom’s [subjective] beliefs with his own [subjective] beliefs!

Ain’t irony grand?

With all due respect and seriousness, I think it is you and Mojo Pin who are basking in the warm light of ignorance.

Bliss indeed.

ETA: upon review, I notice Nametag is an atheist, a fact that impresses me even more.

13

The best thing you can do for your mom is to learn from her. I trust she loves you very much, and it would bring her great joy to see you relieved of your error.

14

Your mum’s beliefs are her own business and I think you would be mistaken to confront her, since it seems pretty clear it would cause her pain to hear of your newfound lack of faith and your certainty of your new opinions. What’s the point? Are you interested in her happiness or in proving how brilliant you are? Do her beliefs hurt you?

I am a lifelong atheist, but have never been troubled by anyone’s religious beliefs as long as they don’t interfere with me or the common good.

15

Ahem brother!

16

Given that she doesn’t seem to be in some sort of spiritually abusive situation – and possibly if she were, since she’s an adult – I’d let it go. I’ve got a relative or two who are involved in churches that would make me run screaming, but they are happy and are being well served by their involvement. I think it would be very rude for you to confront her, unless she got pushy with you first, and I think that would be rude of her to do. It doesn’t sound like she’s going to anyway.

17

You are right of course, the possibility of Big Foot is much more compelling. I was willing to give the God-Theory the benefit of the doubt however.

I think the OP should leave his mother alone, but it is a very tired argument to say that the presumptions there is no evidence for God, and that there is a God, are two equally unprovable assertions.

18

I don’t think you should confront her beliefs, but neither do I think you should cow tow to them.

When you tell her of your decision to not take to heart the mythology of bronze age sheep hearders and she begins with her religious spiel (and she will), THAT is the time to bring up your arguments and confront her.

Until that time, mind your own business unless she brings it up.

19

This tired, apologetic nonsense again?

Give it up, we all know you are NOT tlaking about a deistic prime mover, and almost certianly neither is the OP’s mother. You (and her) are both talking about the Yahweh character form the bible, and NO there IS NO more compelling reason to believe in him than in big foot.

20

No not at all, actually.

For the purpose of this thread, I’ll gladly assume the position of atheist.

Still want to play with me?