Living while black in America

[Sunny_Daze]

@Covfefe

What a cure would affect is a complicated question. I don’t agree with the analogy to an ailment. We’re dealing with sets of characteristics of many different types and levels of severity.

Some on the spectrum are quite gifted in certain areas. They may fear a cure taking that away. There is a fundamental issue of identity and what autism means, how holistically it encompasses one’s identity. Unlike some, I can’t argue against it being responsible to attempt to exhaust avenues to help someone who is limited enough or has co-morbids requiring a lot of treatment. Beyond that, if you would get out more (perhaps visit their online communities), you’d realize your commentary is insensitive. It tears at the heart of some of their identities. It reinforces ideas of the supremacy of social networking the merit of which is based on games some of them would never wish to play. And realistically there may come a day when your son disagrees with you.

1. We’re talking about a “magic” cure. It covers all co-morbidities and associated disorders. All types, all severities.
2. Autism is a spectrum of complicated and incompletely understood disabilities that impact people in ways from the nearly imperceptible to the completely subsuming and infantilizing.
3. On that spectrum, of course there are people that less disabled.
4. Among all individuals, disabled or not, many people are always or grow to be happy with who they are. You put it very well.

This does not the change the hypothetical. If a magic cure appeared and was offered to me, would I give it to my autistic son/child? Yes, I would. I think a responsible parent should “magically” cure autism in their minor children if they could. My job as a parent is to help my child get ready to be a successful adult. Autism makes that road so much harder.

I apologize if it sounded as though I was invalidating anyone who is happy being non-NT. That was not my intention. It was my intention to call bullshit on the hypothetical situation where all parents of autistic children would refuse the magic treatment. That’s a cruel and ridiculous notion.

I will tell you that my son is extremely high functioning with a genius level IQ. As his parent, I still worry that he will never be able to live alone, never be in a committed relationship with a romantic partner, never end up with close friends. All I can do is work every day with his father, and his school, and his care team, and try. He has so much potential, and there are so many barriers.

I am glad that there are autistic individuals who are proud to be autistic, but they have no right to insist that the rest of the population take their path, if they even can. Putting that option out there is as insensitive as you just said I was. My son may never be in position to be happy to be autistic. I’m hoping that he will be happy to be himself. I will never, ever say autism was a blessing or that I would not change it.

[Sunny_Daze]

ETA: The option to be proudly autistic isn’t cruel. Insisting that it’s the proper way to be autistic is.

[SlackerInc]

If you’re quite done flogging that straw man, let’s review what I actually said:

@SlackerInc

I don’t believe autism is a “curse”. If there were some sort of pill or other treatment that was guaranteed to “cure autism” (I guess that would mean making someone neurotypical), I would not authorize it for my kids, although I’d let them make their own choice upon attaining majority. This is not true of how I’d feel about other disabilities: I’m fairly sure I’d be eager to give a blind child vision or enable a wheelchair-bound child to walk. But my wife and I agree on this, as does every parent of a child with autism I have met (which is quite a few). Whereas I doubt this is a common feeling among parents of kids who are blind or in a wheelchair.

:dubious:

The only thing I regret saying there is “let them”. When they attain majority, it would not be up to me.

But you felt the above was so heinous that I deserved to be excoriated for it. Then you realized you had stepped in it and are trying to rewrite the conversation even though it is upthread for all to see.

Unlike you, and the poster who applauded your screed, I recognize your right to have your own feelings on the subject. I haven’t personally met a parent like you, but the existence of Autism Speaks was always evidence they exist.

In a spirit off generosity you didn’t afford me, I offer the same advice I would give someone who confessed they wish they had never had kids, or not so young at least: do not let your son have any slight inkling how you feel. No magic “cure” is forthcoming, and he is virtually guaranteed to interpret your feelings as regret that you had him instead of a neurotypical son.

[SlackerInc]

@j666

Ah. I see. It’s not sub cultural differences, it really is all about the color of one’s skin or at least one’s hair. Huh. I always thought that was a metaphor.

You live with some ugly pieces of work, don’t you?

What is this? What did you think was a metaphor? Who are you calling ugly pieces of work?

[Sunny_Daze]

I love my child. I want him to have the best life possible. Autism doesn’t offer him that. You’re the idiot that introduced this nonsense. I responded to your hypothetical. Any softening of tone you detected was solely for the benefit of Covfefe, whom I respect.

If you feel that your child’s life is a bed of roses and autism has so little impact on it that you would not treat it, I don’t know what to say to you. You are woefully deluded about the impact of autism on the life of your child, and your ignorance is dangerous. You are firmly in the anti-vaxxers category as far as I’m concerned.

[Ambivalid]

@Sunny_Daze

ETA: The option to be proudly autistic isn’t cruel. Insisting that it’s the proper way to be autistic is.

This sounds a lot like the debate surrounding/inside the Deaf Community. As in it’s wrong to want to correct your deafness as it is an inherent part of who you are (according to the Deaf Community) and parents who take steps to lessen or eliminate their child’s deafness are doing their child a grave disservice. I personally find this perspective honestly a bit appalling. The obstacles and handicaps that deafness poses to a person trying to live and thrive in the world are stark and numerous. I don’t understand how that can be characterized as anything but a disability. I am hesitant to criticize the decision of any particular parent re the choices they make for their children, especially as I have none myself. But it seems counterintuitive to the concept of doing the things for your child that best ensure a successful, happy life to decide not to mitigate the factors that work against those aspirations.

[Sunny_Daze]

@Ambivalid

This sounds a lot like the debate surrounding/inside the Deaf Community. As in it’s wrong to want to correct your deafness as it is an inherent part of who you are (according to the Deaf Community) and parents who take steps to lessen or eliminate their child’s deafness are doing their child a grave disservice. I personally find this perspective honestly a bit appalling. The obstacles and handicaps that deafness poses to a person trying to live and thrive in the world are stark and numerous. I don’t understand how that can be characterized as anything but a disability. I am hesitant to criticize the decision of any particular parent re the choices they make for their children, especially as I have none myself. But it seems counterintuitive to the concept of doing the things for your child that best ensure a successful, happy life to decide not to mitigate the factors that work against those aspirations.

Yes, I think the debate is very similar, and I think you and I share similar views.

[MrDibble]

@octopus

Potty mouth

Better than having an arsehole for a mouth. What a waste of your real daddy’s jism you turned out to be, eh?

got a new thesaurus?

No, that was off the top of my head. Don’t expect sentient pondscum like yourself to understand that. Hell, I’'m pretty sure you had to have help on how to spell thesaurus.

It’s telling you are triggered

It’s so cute that racist shitstains like yourself think hearing the language of progressive discourse crudely aped by bipedal slime mould is somehow an effective taunt.

Oh, wait, not cute, what’s the other thing? Pathetic, that’s it.

by a tame rebuke

Fuck off back to your cankerous hole with that “tame rebuke” shit, your malodorous fustilarian. “tame rebuke”, my brown arse. Racist claptrap, more like.

to Huey’s racist screed but not Huey’s post.

I’ll do you a deal. I’ll start rebuking Huey the* day after* you rebuke all the Dope racists you constantly leap to the defence of, and not a moment sooner.

Is history inconvenient

Nah, your attempt to shift all of the blame onto Africans and let colonialists off the hook is too pathetically transparent to be inconvenient to anyone with an actual historic perpective on the slave trade, rather than a tiny head crammed full of White Nationalist talking points.

And the attempt to claim the mantle of White Saviour for the entire race just because some white people weren’t evil arseholes? Just sad, man. Just sad.

your professional victimhood?

…said the amateur racist.

[octopus]

@MrDibble

Better than having an arsehole for a mouth. What a waste of your real daddy’s jism you turned out to be, eh?
No, that was off the top of my head. Don’t expect sentient pondscum like yourself to understand that. Hell, I’'m pretty sure you had to have help on how to spell thesaurus.
It’s so cute that racist shitstains like yourself think hearing the language of progressive discourse crudely aped by bipedal slime mould is somehow an effective taunt.

Oh, wait, not cute, what’s the other thing? Pathetic, that’s it.
Fuck off back to your cankerous hole with that “tame rebuke” shit, your malodorous fustilarian. “tame rebuke”, my brown arse. Racist claptrap, more like.
I’ll do you a deal. I’ll start rebuking Huey the* day after* you rebuke all the Dope racists you constantly leap to the defence of, and not a moment sooner.
Nah, your attempt to shift all of the blame onto Africans and let colonialists off the hook is too pathetically transparent to be inconvenient to anyone with an actual historic perpective on the slave trade, rather than a tiny head crammed full of White Nationalist talking points.

And the attempt to claim the mantle of White Saviour for the entire race just because some white people weren’t evil arseholes? Just sad, man. Just sad.

…said the amateur racist.

Not all the blame. Surely you have the IQ to comprehend what you read. You should try it.

Oh. All Dope racists you are hereby rebuked! That includes you Dibble and Huey.

[MrDibble]

@octopus

Not all the blame.

Sure, buddy. No high-pitched whistling noises here.

Surely you have the IQ to comprehend what you read.

IQ is racist bullshit. Figures you’d use it in a pathetic attempt of an insult.

You should try it.

You should try not being a racist douche.

Oh. All Dope racists you are hear by rebuked!

Ooh, look at Mr High IQ, “hear by” :rolleyes:

That includes you Dibble and Huey.

When have you ever leapt to the defence of Huey or I? Talk about no reading comprehension.

[MrDibble]

Man, that’s just like the White Man, always editing his posts after a brother’s already had fun at his expense. “Rewriting history”, we call it back at Professional Social Justice Warrior Memorial Tower of Victimhood.

Steve Martin’s adoptive family was right. No, not about the Lord loving a working man. The other thing.

[octopus]

@MrDibble

Sure, buddy. No high-pitched whistling noises here.
IQ is racist bullshit. Figures you’d use it in a pathetic attempt of an insult.

You should try not being a racist douche.

Ooh, look at Mr High IQ, “hear by” :rolleyes:
When have you ever leapt to the defence of Huey or I? Talk about no reading comprehension.

IQ is racist? How about water? Or the moon? At some point you can’t be worried about the scary racist bogeyman hiding behind every tree or bush.

And if you chose to use your ability to read in order to understand posts instead of scouring your new thesaurus for obscure words you’d note I gave you a compliment! You are clearly smart you just choose to misinterpret what you read. And I’d defend either of you if you weren’t so myopic and fixated on being a victim.

Anyways why do you want to absolve other groups for their substantial role in slavery? Without Africans catching other Africans would slavery have been as widespread? Many groups were complicit. Matter of fact, in some parts of the world you can still buy a slave. Pretty disgusting isn’t it? But instead of worrying about that let’s focus on cartoons and what a comedian can say.

[octopus]

@MrDibble

Man, that’s just like the White Man, always editing his posts after a brother’s had fun at his expense. “Rewriting history”, we call it back at Professional Social Justice Warrior Tower.

Lol, you still caught the error in time!

[MrDibble]

@octopus

IQ is racist? How about water? Or the moon?

Only a fool would confuse intelligence, which is a real thing like the moon and water, with IQ, which is a biased, made-up thing of no worth ( like the concept of biological race).

At some point you can’t be worried about the scary racist bogeyman hiding behind every tree or bush.

Oh, it’s not us anti-racists who’re shit-their-pants scared.

Hey, octopus, do you smell something? I think it’s coming from your trousers…

scouring your new thesaurus for obscure words

Yeah, it doesn’t actually become true just by repetition.

Anyway, I thought your kind love it when we brown folk are articulate.

you’d note I gave you a compliment!

Don’t do me any favours, you piece of ambulatory shit pressed out of a man-shaped mould.

And I’d defend either of you if you weren’t so myopic and fixated on being a victim.

True story, brah!

But instead of worrying about that let’s focus on cartoons and what a comedian can say.

Oh, yeah, I’m sure you are very active in working to stop modern slavery.

And your pointy White head may only be able to deal with one problem at a time - I’m sure you make monodrones look like consummate multitaskers - but don’t project that tragic lack of ability on me.

[j666]

@SlackerInc

What is this? What did you think was a metaphor? Who are you calling ugly pieces of work?

I really thought “the color of one’s skin” was a metaphor in discussions of racism, for the most part. Your post indicates that your subculture, with its spectrum of what’s considered white, appears to evaluate people on pigmentation literally, AND to believe that it gets to decide other’s racial identity. If one accepts the concept of race as distinct from a personal social identification, one should accept standard distinctions, and not just define everyone who isn’t blond, blue eyed, and aquiline of nose as non-white.

Fortunately, few people care personally about how one socially inbred group classifies them along a spectrum of whiteness, but you fuckers do keep voting.

I am calling the people with whom you imply you associate ugly pieces of work.

Everytime I think Huey has just gone over the top, someone posts and justifies his vent.

All that being said, I believe that “malodorous fustilarian” is tautological.

[SlackerInc]

@j666

Your post indicates that your subculture, with its spectrum of what’s considered white, appears to evaluate people on pigmentation literally, AND to believe that it gets to decide other’s racial identity. If one accepts the concept of race as distinct from a personal social identification, one should accept standard distinctions, and not just define everyone who isn’t blond, blue eyed, and aquiline of nose as non-white.

You sure read a lot into what I said, jesus. I was only responding, in a friendly and matter-of-fact way, to someone saying hardly any white people actually have the features Huey described. I was simply observing that where I live, those features are ubiquitous—but that I recognize that in other places, including the most populated city in the U.S., that is not the case. I didn’t put any value judgement on any of it, except for this, which you apparently completely missed somehow:

@SlackerInc

Things like that make me understand the impulse among POC to hate on white people

@j666

Fortunately, few people care personally about how one socially inbred group classifies them along a spectrum of whiteness, but you fuckers do keep voting.

I am calling the people with whom you imply you associate ugly pieces of work.

What. The. Actual. Fuck. :eek:
Minnesotans, you mean? Yes, we’re a blonde/red, blue-eyed bunch. We’re also the only state that hasn’t voted for a Republican for president in my lifetime. My wife and I are lifelong Democrats (we call them DFLers here), as is the entire nuclear family I grew up in, along with my maternal grandfather and grandmother. So what the hell are you on about? Jesus, I mean: I know this is the Pit, but that doesn’t mean you have to just go off randomly with no rhyme or reason behind it.

@Ambivalid

This sounds a lot like the debate surrounding/inside the Deaf Community. As in it’s wrong to want to correct your deafness as it is an inherent part of who you are (according to the Deaf Community) and parents who take steps to lessen or eliminate their child’s deafness are doing their child a grave disservice. I personally find this perspective honestly a bit appalling. The obstacles and handicaps that deafness poses to a person trying to live and thrive in the world are stark and numerous. I don’t understand how that can be characterized as anything but a disability.

I feel exactly the same as you do about deafness, so please don’t try to lump me in with people who resist helping their children hear.

@Sunny_Daze

I love my child. I want him to have the best life possible. Autism doesn’t offer him that.

There is no “him” without autism. It is an essential part of his self. You might as well say you love someone but you would be happier for them if they were smarter, were extroverted instead of introverted, optimistic instead of pessimistic, and liked tennis and playing guitar instead of collecting comics and playing video games. That would be a different person. And so would your son “without autism”, whatever that even means.

@Sunny_Daze

You’re the idiot that introduced this nonsense.

Actually, I believe that was Huey, who said my children were “cursed” with autism. I guess you endorse that description? :dubious:

@Sunny_Daze

I responded to your hypothetical. Any softening of tone you detected was solely for the benefit of Covfefe, whom I respect.

So you just openly talk out of both sides of your mouth, even though everyone can see all of it? That is bizarre. You fed Covfefe a “little happy clouds” take just because that’s what you felt s/he wanted to hear, and then you openly stated that it was really bullshit you just said to be nice, but what you really believe is that it’s idiotic nonsense. Do you have some reason to believe that Covfefe has stopped reading?

@Sunny_Daze

You are firmly in the anti-vaxxers category as far as I’m concerned.

Wowwww. :eek: We are deep in an Orwellian chasm now. It doesn’t matter that all my children are fully vaccinated, and that I don’t speak out against vaccinations. I’m “firmly in the anti-vaxxers category as far as [you] are concerned” because…what? You see it as some kind of general-use catchall insult for people you don’t like? Sorry, SD: you don’t just get to define terminology against all common usage, not to mention basic common sense.

[j666]

@SlackerInc

You sure read a lot into what I said, jesus. I was only responding, in a friendly and matter-of-fact way, to someone saying hardly any white people actually have the features Huey described. I was simply observing that where I live, those features are ubiquitous—but that I recognize that in other places, including the most populated city in the U.S., that is not the case. I didn’t put any value judgement on any of it, except for this, which you apparently completely missed somehow:

Don’t mischaracterize what I said; I said that I did not know many people that met Huey’s description. I wanted to know where Huey lives, that all the white people he knows appear to be of northern European descent. It could well be in your part of the country.

I don’t care that you know feel you understand POC attitude toward white people, but I do care that you truncated that section of your post to leave out “it’s still an erroneous impulse”.

@SlackerInc

What. The. Actual. Fuck. :eek:
Minnesotans, you mean? Yes, we’re a blonde/red, blue-eyed bunch. We’re also the only state that hasn’t voted for a Republican for president in my lifetime. My wife and I are lifelong Democrats (we call them DFLers here), as is the entire nuclear family I grew up in, along with my maternal grandfather and grandmother. So what the hell are you on about? Jesus, I mean: I know this is the Pit, but that doesn’t mean you have to just go off randomly with no rhyme or reason behind it.

It doesn’t matter that you are Minnesotans or Democrats; referring to “the spectrum of what’s considered ‘white’” in New York is an ugly turn of phrase, and denotes an ugly turn of thought.

Tell me, Huey, can Americans of southern European get a pass on the racism issue, depending on where they fall on the whiteness spectrum? Or are they damned from both sides?

[octopus]

@MrDibble

Only a fool would confuse intelligence, which is a real thing like the moon and water, with IQ, which is a biased, made-up thing of no worth ( like the concept of biological race).
Oh, it’s not us anti-racists who’re shit-their-pants scared.

Hey, octopus, do you smell something? I think it’s coming from your trousers…
Yeah, it doesn’t actually become true just by repetition.

Anyway, I thought your kind love it when we brown folk are articulate.
Don’t do me any favours, you piece of ambulatory shit pressed out of a man-shaped mould.True story, brah!
Oh, yeah, I’m sure you are very active in working to stop modern slavery.

And your pointy White head may only be able to deal with one problem at a time - I’m sure you make monodrones look like consummate multitaskers - but don’t project that tragic lack of ability on me.

If race is imaginary, like Voldemort, why are you always crying about the evils of the so-called white man? The whole reason you are triggered is I rightfully pointed out that Africans also caught, sold, and had slaves. Hell, your ancestors might have done so. You are mad and digging deep into your reference books because history undermines your propaganda.

And you like talking about intelligence for some reason. Why is that and more importantly why do you pick on a physical trait? That’s mean! People can’t help their brain structure.

Concerning stopping modern slavery? According to you and Huey, individuals are responsible for whatever any arbitrary grouping you can assign the to does. So yes, like Al Gore, it’s nice to have invented the Internet.

[Ambivalid]

@SlackerInc

I feel exactly the same as you do about deafness, so please don’t try to lump me in with people who resist helping their children hear…

One of the things that I feel about deafness is that the decision of parents of children with this disability to not seek treatment is similar to the decision of parents of children with autism to not seek treatment. So I do not believe you feel exactly the same as I do about deafness.

Both deafness and autism are disabilities. Both conditions can and do cause significant impairment to successful, independent integration into society. You say there is no “him” without autism (re your son that is). If that aspect of him that is responsible for so much hardship, hardship that you as a parent have the power to lessen, is an unassailable component to his identity, what does that say about your understanding of your son’s potential to succeed and thrive to his greatest potential?

I don’t mean to sound as if this is anything but a hypothetical. I am trying to be careful not to come across like im being too judgemental, as this is a sensitive, complicated issue which you have myriad more experience with than I.

ETA: especially as my experience amounts to precisely none.

[j666]

@octopus

If race is imaginary, like Voldemort, why are you always crying about the evils of the so-called white man? The whole reason you are triggered is I rightfully pointed out that Africans also caught, sold, and had slaves. Hell, your ancestors might have done so. You are mad and digging deep into your reference books because history undermines your propaganda.

And you like talking about intelligence for some reason. Why is that and more importantly why do you pick on a physical trait? That’s mean! People can’t help their brain structure.

Concerning stopping modern slavery? According to you and Huey, individuals are responsible for whatever any arbitrary grouping you can assign the to does. So yes, like Al Gore, it’s nice to have invented the Internet.

Race is a social construct, but it isn’t imaginary. You know that. You’re twisting words.

“Triggered” is not the same as “angry”. You should know that or not use the word.

History *is *propaganda. “Whataboutism” is not a meaningful response.

You brought up IQ; the response brought up intelligence. If they are not the same, the response is valid; if they are the same, you should not imply the discussion is the respondent’s preference.

Your post is dishonest.