Living while black in America

[Shodan]

@Darth_Hamsandwich

If a white person acknowledges that they have privileges that other minorities don’t, is that enough? If not, what else can I do?

I find it helps to drink excessively.

Regards,
Shodan

[Darth_Hamsandwich]

@Shodan

I find it helps to drink excessively.

Regards,
Shodan

I realize that you’re kidding here, but I’m really serious about this. I reached out to a friend of mine on Facebook today who I grew up with and asked him these questions. I had to Google the correct term on how to describe him to the SD crowd. I honestly wasn’t sure. He’s a person of color. Is that right? If not, what is the accepted term? I was originally going to describe him as a colored person, but I read that this phrase is considered racist. But that doesn’t make sense to me as NAACP is short for “National Association for the Advancement of Colored People”.

Anyway, his response, shortened, pretty much was, “Bro, why are you stressing over this? You’re good, man.”

Does this mean I pass the racist test because my friend, who is a person of color, said I wasn’t a racist? If not, what else can I do?

[Evil_Economist]

@Darth_Hamsandwich

I was originally going to describe him as a colored person, but I read that this phrase is considered racist.

Did you just now learn that? It’s been racist for longer than I’ve been alive. How the fuck are you just now learning this?

But that doesn’t make sense to me as NAACP is short for “National Association for the Advancement of Colored People”.

The NAACP was formed in 1909. I suspect in other instances you can understand that language changes over time. Otherwise, stay away from Huckleberry Finn.

[Airbeck]

Are white people persons without color? Or uncolored people?

Why not just say your friend. Why the need to clarify beyond that if you are referring to him? Here’s a trick, think about the ways you would want people to refer to you, and use that to decide how to refer to others.

[Evil_Economist]

@andros

(Also, providing a source for Evil E’s poem above: Countee Cullen | Poetry Foundation)

Thanks for that; I’d read the poetry of course, but I’d never read a biography of the man. Good read.

[Darth_Hamsandwich]

@Airbeck

Are white people persons without color? Or uncolored people?

Why not just say your friend. Why the need to clarify beyond that if you are referring to him? Here’s a trick, think about the ways you would want people to refer to you, and use that to decide how to refer to others.

If I had just described him as my friend, without saying he was black, it would have taken my anecdote out of its proper context. What would have been the point of asking one of my white friends my questions?

@Evil_Economist

Did you just now learn that? It’s been racist for longer than I’ve been alive. How the fuck are you just now learning this?

The NAACP was formed in 1909. I suspect in other instances you can understand that language changes over time. Otherwise, stay away from Huckleberry Finn.

Yes, I honestly just found this out. I’ve heard people use different descriptors while growing up: black, colored, African-American, colored person, and person of color. That’s why I Googled what was the current acceptable term. Now I know. Serious question: why doesn’t the NAACP change the name if it’s offensive?

[Evil_Economist]

@Darth_Hamsandwich

Serious question: why doesn’t the NAACP change the name if it’s offensive?

Because: “No way. Why should I change? He’s the one who sucks.”

[Chingon]

It’s great how this thread has devolved into yet another “gee life is tough for us white folks” pity party.

[Darth_Hamsandwich]

@Evil_Economist

Because: “No way. Why should I change? He’s the one who sucks.”

What does a national organization gain from using an offensive descriptor? That’s where I’m getting lost. I’m not trying to offend, here, I really don’t get it. Unless it’s simply a matter of too much money to update the stationary or something.

[Darth_Hamsandwich]

Ok, if I’m reading this right, now I’m even more confused (from Wiki):

In the 21st century, “colored” is generally regarded as an offensive term.[5][14] The term lives on in the name of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, generally called the NAACP.[5] In 2008, its communications director Carla Sims said “the term ‘colored’ is not derogatory, [the NAACP] chose the word ‘colored’ because it was the most positive description commonly used [in 1909, when the association was founded]. It’s outdated and antiquated but not offensive.”

Ok, “colored” is generally considered an offensive term, and yet it’s director says while it’s outdated it’s not considered offensive. I’m sticking with person of color if I ever have to use a descriptor, which is pretty rare.

[Johnny_Bravo]

@Darth_Hamsandwich

What does a national organization gain from using an offensive descriptor?

Here is a response from Rev. William Barber, who is the President of the NC chapter of the NAACP:

Great question. To be quite honest, there has been some internal wrestling with the name, but one reason it hasn’t been changed is out of respect for history and the founders.

In 1909, when the organization began, “colored” was one of the more respected identifications used by the larger society when compared with all the other grotesque names used to refer to African-Americans.

Another reason however, is that the NAACP was founded as a multi-ethnic organization by whites, blacks, Jews, Christians, male, female, etc. In fact, the majority of the founders were white. The first chair was a white woman. So, in a sense, it was a “colored” organization dedicated to the eradication of racism and legalized racial discrimination and disparity.

Even today, our mission is broad and covers all minorities: “The mission of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People is to ensure the political, educational, social and economic equality of rights of all persons and to eliminate racial hatred and racial discrimination.”

[Darth_Hamsandwich]

@Johnny_Bravo

Here is a response from Rev. William Barber, who is the President of the NC chapter of the NAACP:

Thanks Johnny. Ignorance fought.

[echoreply]

@Fenris

If it’s his wife’s boss, say something gently (“I’m sure you were unaware if it, but the joke you told make me feel uncomfortable and unwelcome here…so much so, that it gave me a tummy ache. I wanted to let you know only because I know it was unintentional and I know you wouldn’t do anything to deliberately hurt someone”)

Because people take gentle correction so well. The boss is going to see that as an attack. He’s going to get upset and offended, “come on, it was just a joke.” They now know he is a racist, or at least racist enough to have behaved that way. I’m sure he doesn’t have a problem working with Huey’s wife, “no, she’s one of the good ones,” but that doesn’t mean pissing of your boss won’t have consequences.

Even if they did want to say something, there is the problem of the perfect comeback. It’s hard to know what to say on the spot and in the moment.

How much does it suck to think you’re with people who aren’t a problem, and then you find out they’re a problem?

[kayaker]

@Chingon

It’s great how this thread has devolved into yet another “gee life is tough for us white folks” pity party.

You know, every time I buy sunscreen, it’s either gone up in price or else the bottle is smaller. :mad:

[Sunny_Daze]

@Chingon

It’s great how this thread has devolved into yet another “gee life is tough for us white folks” pity party.

Read it again.

[Guinastasia]

@andros

“My people experience and have experienced terrible, horrific racism and oppression, and I just got over it, so you should too.”

Considering that Fenris’s father is a Holocaust survivor, I’m guessing it he’s familiar with the whole legacy of “terrible, horrific racism and oppression”.

:rolleyes:
(Forgive me for speaking for you, Fenris. Please don’t Box me!)

[Roderick_Femm]

@Darth_Hamsandwich

Is it possible for a white person in America to be a non-racist? if not, what can an individual white person do to become a non-racist and who decides if a white person passes that test? I don’t feel like a racist. I really don’t. I’ve never been told by anyone that I’m a racist, but I genuinely don’t want to be labeled as one. It can’t be a change in my heart or mind because I never once in my life thought of someone else as inferior to me due to skin color or anything else for that matter. If a white person acknowledges that they have privileges that other minorities don’t, is that enough? If not, what else can I do? I’m being completely serious about this. How do I prove that I’m not racist to people who think that whites in America are inherently racist?

This may be the crux of what Huey is getting at (although I am not speaking for him, this is what I get out of his posts): it’s not enough to be not-a-racist (or at least as close to that as a person can be). You can’t sit back and be satisfied with your own adequacy, it is important to be an active fighter against racism. For example, in Huey’s story, the other white folks are the ones who should have spoken out, not Huey or his wife. They shouldn’t have to still be defending themselves from this stuff after 400 years of slavery and oppression. Is your police force shooting unarmed black people? Get out there and engage with your city government and police commission about that. If your city is perfect, look at your county or state, and get involved. But maybe most important is just to let everyone around you know by your expressed opinions that racist jokes and stuff won’t fly when you’re around. You may not change their minds (although you might) but at least you can help keep the level of garbage down.

You don’t need some certificate of approval from Huey, you need to satisfy your own conscience that you have done what you can do to right a very long-standing wrong.

[Fenris]

@echoreply

Because people take gentle correction so well. The boss is going to see that as an attack. He’s going to get upset and offended, “come on, it was just a joke.” They now know he is a racist, or at least racist enough to have behaved that way. I’m sure he doesn’t have a problem working with Huey’s wife, “no, she’s one of the good ones,” but that doesn’t mean pissing of your boss won’t have consequences.

Even if they did want to say something, there is the problem of the perfect comeback. It’s hard to know what to say on the spot and in the moment.

How much does it suck to think you’re with people who aren’t a problem, and then you find out they’re a problem?

But see, Huey in particular is the toughest baddest badass ever. I understand everything you say applies to normal people, but he is super tough and should be able to take it; consequences come what may. Please note that every one of my posts has been specifically about Huey’s reaction not a normal person’s. This is the guy who can use horrific insults like calling Shodan, of whom I am not a fan, “Grand Dragon” on the internet, but when someone in real life tells a joke that qualifies as kind of racist and shows bad judgment, it makes him weep like a spoiled sweet 16er who didn’t get the precise shade of dusky rose dress, rather than actually doing something…For example, calling the speaker a Grand Dragon.

[Buck_Godot]

@Huey_Freeman

There are a host of political examples that I could give but (in the interest of time) let me give you a real-life, personal example of the bystander effect that I’m referring to. Several months ago, Mrs. Freeman and I went to a dinner with some (white) co-workers from her work. There were about 7 - 8 of us including my wife, and we were the only people of color in the group. We were sitting at the table, eating chips and salsa, having pleasant conversation, waiting for our order to arrive. Then one of the white men, who is a manager at a local credit union, told a story of a black man approaching him to cash a check. It went something like this (paraphrased):

Black man: <glances down> Hey! Nice ring! Where did you get it from?
White man: Oh this? It’s a fake.

The punchline of his joke/story was that he deliberately lied to the black guy because he was afraid the black man could rob him of his wedding band after his shift. Keep in mind, this man’s race was deliberately brought up by our white storyteller, this is said in one of the most whitest cities and arguably one of the most whitest States in the Union. The crime rate in this city (and this State) is very low and, in relative terms, the murder rate is nearly non-existent. That didn’t matter because the white people in attendance laughed hysterically.

Although it was uncomfortable, we were polite. We didn’t leave. We didn’t say anything because we knew that if we left, Mrs. Freeman’s boss could have retaliated and her job could potentially be at risk. Further, while this ruined our evening, I knew that if I were to speak up, white fragility would ensure the evening would have been ruined for everyone. This is because white people go apeshit when they are checked on their racism. So, we just ate the contemporary racism that these white folks were serving. But what hurt my wife was that a particular female co-worker who she felt was a friend and close to, laughed the hardest. It would have been analogous to us telling a story that weaponized stereotypes of white people, then laughing about it. That would not have gone well.

First, white people do this shit all of the time. White people bear witness to racism and they keep silent. They don’t say anything. I’m not digging in your past, but think about the racism you’ve seen from other whites, where you kept silent, where you didn’t say anything, where you shook your head but didn’t confront it. That’s the issue. Second, it highlights that white folks, while thinking themselves not racist, still harboring racist thoughts and assumptions. Lastly, from the perspective of a person of color, it cements the idea that white folks lack empathy. It confirms their monstrous nature. This is because if the roles were reversed, a person of color would go out of their way to ensure that the white person feels comfortable in a majority-minority group. It would’ve been the* human *thing to do.

Thanks for your polite response. Two questions. First, do you feel that the teller of the joke and/or the people who laughed at the joke thought it was wise of the white man to hide the rings value to prevent it from being stolen, or thought it was funny because it illustrated in sharp relief the negative stereotypes that blacks had to deal with. 2) if one of the white people had spoken up and said, “come on guys, racism is a serious issue that blacks have to deal with on a daily basis and not something to make joke about”. Would you consider that that person might be an ally in the fight against racism, or is the fact that they are white, and so don’t have complete insight in to what it means to be a black, mean that they are by necessity an evil oppressor.

[Buck_Godot]

@Huey_Freeman

There are a host of political examples that I could give but (in the interest of time) let me give you a real-life, personal example of the bystander effect that I’m referring to. Several months ago, Mrs. Freeman and I went to a dinner with some (white) co-workers from her work. There were about 7 - 8 of us including my wife, and we were the only people of color in the group. We were sitting at the table, eating chips and salsa, having pleasant conversation, waiting for our order to arrive. Then one of the white men, who is a manager at a local credit union, told a story of a black man approaching him to cash a check. It went something like this (paraphrased):

Black man: <glances down> Hey! Nice ring! Where did you get it from?
White man: Oh this? It’s a fake.

The punchline of his joke/story was that he deliberately lied to the black guy because he was afraid the black man could rob him of his wedding band after his shift. Keep in mind, this man’s race was deliberately brought up by our white storyteller, this is said in one of the most whitest cities and arguably one of the most whitest States in the Union. The crime rate in this city (and this State) is very low and, in relative terms, the murder rate is nearly non-existent. That didn’t matter because the white people in attendance laughed hysterically.

Although it was uncomfortable, we were polite. We didn’t leave. We didn’t say anything because we knew that if we left, Mrs. Freeman’s boss could have retaliated and her job could potentially be at risk. Further, while this ruined our evening, I knew that if I were to speak up, white fragility would ensure the evening would have been ruined for everyone. This is because white people go apeshit when they are checked on their racism. So, we just ate the contemporary racism that these white folks were serving. But what hurt my wife was that a particular female co-worker who she felt was a friend and close to, laughed the hardest. It would have been analogous to us telling a story that weaponized stereotypes of white people, then laughing about it. That would not have gone well.

First, white people do this shit all of the time. White people bear witness to racism and they keep silent. They don’t say anything. I’m not digging in your past, but think about the racism you’ve seen from other whites, where you kept silent, where you didn’t say anything, where you shook your head but didn’t confront it. That’s the issue. Second, it highlights that white folks, while thinking themselves not racist, still harboring racist thoughts and assumptions. Lastly, from the perspective of a person of color, it cements the idea that white folks lack empathy. It confirms their monstrous nature. This is because if the roles were reversed, a person of color would go out of their way to ensure that the white person feels comfortable in a majority-minority group. It would’ve been the* human *thing to do.

Thanks for your polite response. Two questions. First, do you feel that the teller of the joke and/or the people who laughed at the joke thought it was wise of the white man to hide the rings value to prevent it from being stolen, or thought it was funny because it illustrated the negative stereotypes that blacks had to deal with (ie the butt of the joke was the racist white guy). 2) if one of the white people had spoken up and said, “come on guys, racism is a serious issue that blacks have to deal with on a daily basis and not something to make joke about”. Would you consider that that person might be an ally in the fight against racism, or is the fact that they are white, and so don’t have complete insight in to what it means to be a black, mean that they are by necessity an evil oppressor.