Look out would-be burglars, I'm gettin' a gun!!

Great Debates
1

Well, I know it isnt very “PC” but screw that crap.
I am purchasing a new handgun, hopefully in the near future.
A Beretta 92fs, or a 99fs In single and double action(99fs has adjustable sights wich I will probably go with) My question is, Which caliber should I get the gun in? My choices are the 9mm, or the .40
Both cartrages(SP) are widely avalible, in many formats. The .40 is a 10+1 capacity only, whereas the 9mm accecpts Hi-cap magazines (I live in California, so it comes with the 10 shot, but I have access to a mulitude of 15-20 rounders, gotta love e-bay)
The gun will be mainly used as a self/home defense gun, but I enjoy shooting, and will practice quite often.

I know that there are a few dopers out there that are into guns, all I am looking for is a little guidance.
If this needs to be in GQ, by all means move it!

2

All debates about handguns aside, my neighbor got a gun because she lives alone and there had been a few burglaries in our neighborhood.

Sure enough, her house WAS burglarized. They took the gun, and I’m sure they’ve put it to good use over the last year. I know absolutely nothing about guns, but I’d say get a good gun safe, and if you ever have kids in the house, for the love of God, get a trigger lock and use it.

3

And better yet watch your damn kids! Trigger locks are in my proffesional opinion, a waste of money. I am, however, a big fan of those mini safes. A firearm can be almost instantly obtained from one of those things. Trigger locks are too small, they use KEYS, and you will be dead before you get the stupid thing off. I will not go into specifics if I dont have to, but one thing it is almost impossible to do when you are scared for your life is stick a small rod into a smaller hole. (laugh now and get it over with) That is even if you had the keys on your person at the time. And who the hell sleeps with their keys??? Next you will decide to keep the keys next to the lock and that defeats the whole purpose of a lock to begin with. So stay away from trigger locks!!! Trigger locks are a false sense of security flaunted by Democrats like it is the solution to all the evil in the world. Sorry… I just HATE trigger locks. There are much better and even cheaper ways to store a firearm in a house! And above all else… keep an eye on your children. If your kids are home alone, tell them to stay the hell out of your room. Educate them about firearms.
What? Don’t trust your children- maybe they wont listen? Put a freakin lock on your bedroom door!!

Back to the OP, people will tell you to go with the 40 because it has more power, and it does. But SHOT PLACEMENT has a lot to do with it too. Learn to shoot! Hit a man in the heart with a 9mm, and he’ll feel it!
Also, it seems that in home invasion type situations, the victim just shoots wildly at the burglar. Because of this, I would go with the higher capacity :wink:
BTW, I do not know what 15 round mags are going for on eBay, but I can sell you some brand new ones for $20… plus postage. Let us know what you decide to get.

4

Well, shot placement IS everything, after all you can kill a bear with a 22 (err, no offense, your name and all that) If you hit it in the eye. I dont mind learning and practicing till I hit what I want to, but if some stupid SOB wants to break in to my house, I am going to unload everything I have into either his forehead, or his heart. I like my bad guys DEAD. As for children, I am the only one, I am 20, living at home, with my parents. I will probably get the small safe with the 6 button combo with the switch. Opens in like half a second.

5

Do you actually know how to use a gun, fnord? Because if you aren’t already familiar with them–and, really, even if you are–a shotgun with fairly light shot shells (#4 to #6) is better for home defense.

If you’re gonna go with the Berreta, I’d get the .40–better stopping power. (I use a .45 ACP, myself.) (Yes, Bear, you’re right…but in that kind of situation you’re liable to not get a clean shot at a nice stationary target.) Don’t worry about magazine capacity–chances are very slim that you’d need more than 11 rounds.

And…InternetLegend is right, in the sense that you have an obligation to keep your gun(s) out of the hands of children, and out of the hands of criminals insofar as you can do so. And learn to be safe with it yourself, if you don’t already know how. Every time I hear about somebody shooting themselves while cleaning a gun, I think of the line: “evolution in action.” And if you have kids at home, take Bear’s advice–educate them about guns. I’ve been shooting since I was five or six–I was taught what you do and don’t do with a gun.

6

Uhhhh, I think I should clarify something about my comment about Unloading everything I have into the badguy. I say this only if said bad guy is
a: trying to kill me or my family
b: Is armed himself(herself)
c: I cant get away with reasonable safety and call the cops

I dont want anyone to think I am crazy and want to kill people. Just that I am crazy and want to kill people that want to kill me.

7

Yes, I am quite gun literate, but as for the shotgun, it is quite large and is easily hung up. My house has several tight corners wich would make a shotugn impractical and a liability, whereas a pistol is easily carried wherever I can go. I also plan to get a CCW (concealed carry weapon) permit, but thats a different thread all together.

I also have a .50 cal black powder rifle, I joke to friends that its my home defense gun. If I didnt get em, the fireball would.

8

A couple things real quick. I’ve been around guns all my life and can tell you that Bear is right. A mini safe is the best way to go. Make sure your kids understand what the gun is, why it’s dangerous, etc. I would recommend taking a handgun safety class, as well. As long as I’ve been around guns, I always learn something new when I go to one of those things. I know it seems stupid, but my experiences with them have been very good. We also have free classes for children about gun safety given by our local PD. If something like that’s available, I’d recommend looking into it. As for the type of gun, I’m not sure how much experience you have with handguns. I 9mm will get the job done. When I picked mine out, I went to the gun range and they let me shoot 9 or 10 different guns and let me pick out which one I liked the best. Good luck and be safe.

9

The chances of actually having to use the gun for self defense are small. This bit of good news is because home invasion burglaries and burglary of an occupied dwelling crimes are statistically unlikely to occur to most homes.

That being said, I understand your wanting to defend yourself. My home is very well protected. I own a number of pistols, the Smith & Wesson model 659 9mm being my favorite. Its large grip fits my hand quite well, it fires either single or double action, and the factory clip holds 13 rounds. (He may get off the first round, but rounds 2 through 8 are “mine”.) Granted, the 659 IS an “outdated” weapon. But I like it.

Two bits of advise. Think about a 380 automatic. It is smaller than a 9mm meaning that it is easier to wield. If for some bizarre reason your mom or girlfriend had to use it, they could. A 9mm or 40 caliber is much less friendly to the more petite frame. My next weapon will be something that Mrs. Style can fire and I’m seriously looking at a 380.

You’re talking about a gun that you’re prepared to use indoors. Understand that firing ANY high powered pistol indoors WILL have a profound impact on the hearing of anyone closeby. Personally, I have no desire to touch off a round in the hallway. I like my hearing entirely too much. On this basis alone, I’m considering adding a smaller caliber weapon to my arsenal.

If you’ve not been raised around guns, or aren’t familiar with proper handling, care, and maintenance then by all means take a class. You’d be surprised how much fun, and revealing, they can be.

Whatever you decide, good luck.

10

Neat! You can get roaring drunk and play “William Tell” with your wife!

Alternately, you can think your two big toenails shining in the moonlight down there at the end of your bed are actually the eyes of a mysterious marauder, and you can stealthily slip your gun out from under your pillow, and take careful aim, and…

11

Get the .40, and some Glasers.

A .380’s just too small (it’s a 9mm with a shorter case/less powder), and a 9mm doesn’t have a whole lot of stopping power–there was a study of police records where it was found that criminals the cops shot with the 9mm sometimes took five or more rounds and kept coming, but most everybody hit with a .45 went down immediately.

The .40’s a nice balance between the two (lots more power than a 9mm, without the redoil of a .45)

“Glaser” is a trade name for a bullet that had a very thin metal jacket with a plastic/teflon tip, and is filled with high-density, very small shot (think sanblasting beads made of lead). It transfers almost all of its energy instantly, so it doesn’t overpenetrate–if it hits a body and/or a wall, it’ll turn to dust, but leave a VERY large hole in whatever it hit. Ads show a picture of two layers of drywall 4 inches apart (like a wall in a house). 1 piece has an 8" or so hole in it, while the other piece is peppered with tiny holes that don’t go all the way thru.

I personally prefer .45s (ACP or long). One shot guaranteed incapacitation, even with FMJ ball ammo.

12

Hey fnord1966!

If you’re already firing black powder rifles and know about combination lock boxes, then you already sound pretty knowledgeable. I don’t know the Berettas, and I’ve never fired a 9mm myself. But here’s some general thoughts that I would consider.

  1. Home protection is a special sort of self-defense environment. You could be firing either at very close range or at relatively long distances (across a room), probably in poor lighting, and under great pressure. Marksmanship is going to suffer. All this is an argument for a larger-caliber round that will take the other guy out even if you only hit him in the shoulder or leg. From what I’ve heard, a 9mm is kind of small for this purpose. It’s a good general combat size, but it’s not a guaranteed people-stopper. I was trained according to the principle that it’s better to learn from the start to handle a larger gun and knock the guy down with one shot every time. A .38 is borderline (it should be able to shoot plus-charge .38s) and a .45 or one of the magnums is preferable

And if you get a gun that fires a large-caliber round, then make sure you get a heavy, large-frame gun to match it. Don’t get a light gun that fires a large-caliber round–the kick is going to be amplified. If the kick is bad enough, it’s almost impossible for even an expert to fire fast, multiple shots with any accuracy. You’re just going to end up spraying the walls and ceiling full of holes. The firing is much smoother if you get a large-frame gun. Even a 95-pound woman can fire a .44 magnum comfortably, as long as the gun is big and heavy enough to soak up the kick.

  1. If you also want to go to the range and do recreational target shooting (more than just familiarization firing once or twice a year), then there are some additional considerations. The barrel must be at least four inches, and ideally six inches. (A two-inch barrel has about zero accuracy beyond something like seven feet.) And you must have adjustable sights, or it’s just too much work to really be fun. Also, you have to look at the cost of the bullets. When I go to the range, I often fire 50 or 100 rounds or more. And if you really want to be a fairly good marksman, you have to be down there pretty regularly. If you have a large-caliber gun, the cost of the rounds is going to add up quick. So here’s what many marksmen do: Buy a target-accuracy .22 cal. pistol (6” barrel, adjustable sights) for most of their shooting at the range (only a penny or so a round), and then also have a large-caliber gun that’s fun to shoot at the range, but only use it for the last 10 or 20 shots at the end of the day. Again, make sure it has a large frame. If you get a small gun with a big kick, it’s going to hurt you and wear you down when you fire a lot of rounds at the range.

  2. A concealed-carry weapon (CCW) is a whole different matter. Ideally you want a snub-nosed gun (2” barrel), as light as possible (so it’s easy to lug around), and no sights on the gun or thumb grip on the hammer so that it can be pulled out in a hurry without snagging. If you use this gun in a CCW situation, most likely the assailant will be within arm’s reach–you want speed instead of accuracy. A large-caliber bullet in a small frame is okay, since you will probably be operating close in.

This is the total opposite of the type of guns mentioned in items 1 and 2. Some people compromise between items 1 and 3 by getting a medium-weight combat pistol (the 9 mm is a popular choice) with small fixed sights (less snag than adjustable sights), and then get a separate gun for target shooting (the target .22). But this solution means that the combat gun is less than ideal for purposes of both 1 and 3. For example, a gun with a 4” barrel is tough to carry around as a CCW, while a gun with a 2” barrel is useless beyond a couple feet in a home-protection scenario, especially when you’re firing under pressure.

The ideal option is to own three guns: a large-caliber gun for home and the target range, a target .22 for the range exclusively, and a light piece for a CCW rig. The right tool for the right job.

As for the combination lock box, I’ve seen them and they sound like a good idea. But practice the combo frequently. If it’s the middle of the night, you’re groggy, you’re hearing sounds, and you haven’t used the lock box in a while, it may be near impossible to remember or work the combo. One expert recommends simply locking the gun up in a gun safe when you leave the house during the day and then taking it out and putting it in a convenient hideaway spot when you come home at night. But you have to remember to keep moving it from the safe to the hideaway and back every day. It requires some gun-handling each and every day (and the expert says that this is a good thing if you want to be truly comfortable with your gun and pro-active about self-defense).

Shotguns are pretty much only good for home protection if you stash them in one part of the house (usually in the bedroom) and use that room for holing-up in case of an intruder. They’re awful for roaming around the house in the dark. They’re very impressive, but they’re clumsy.

As you already mentioned, guns are only a last resort. Have a phone line or a cell phone in the bedroom in order to call the cops, and try to have an escape route out the bedroom window. The only time you should need to roam the house at night with a gun is: 1) If you heard a noise and you’re pretty sure there aren’t any intruders, but you want to do a check anyway; 2) You’re pretty sure there are intruders, and you need to go protect someone else (often your children) elsewhere in the house. Other than those two instances, if you’re pretty sure there is an intruder, then call the cops from the bedroom and then slip out the bedroom window. No use risking your life over a stolen TV.

A couple more notes about the consequences of using a gun for home protection:

  1. Check your state’s laws on gun use. In some states a gun can only be used if the assailant is a direct and immediate threat. For example, if the assailant sees your gun and starts running away from you, you legally can’t shoot him since he isn’t an immediate threat at that moment (no matter what he might have done before you arrived on the scene). Take a self-protection course at a local range if only so you can learn the legal limits on your right to protect yourself, your family, and your property.

  2. Identify the target before shooting. It’s not just bad guys that enter your house. It’s also drinking buddies playing a prank on you, or it’s your parent’s houseguest coming back in after sneaking a smoke on the back porch, or it’s your teenage cousin sneaking out to go to a late-night party, or it’s a cop checking a window or a front door that was accidentally left open.

  3. Prepare to be deaf for a few hours after shooting a gun indoors. Shooting a gun indoors, even a small-caliber gun, is loud and painful. Don’t do it on a whim.

Guns are like cars: Simple to operate, perfectly safe if used properly, and incredibly dangerous if used improperly. And you have to be properly instructed on their use and stay in practice with them if you want to use them correctly under pressure.

13

Didn’t everybody just KNOW that Gunslinger was gonna reply to this thread :slight_smile:

14

Fnord, cops don’t have to protect you. I agree with a and b, but c is really bad policy. If you’re in your own home and being threatened, your life is already in danger.

Regarding the OP, if you have a chance, try out both calibers. Whichever one feels most comfortable to you is the one you should get. It’s better to hit your target with a smaller round than to miss with a guaranteed knockdown round.

That said, my caliber of choice is the .45 automatic. It IS an almost guaranteed single-shot knockdown.

Trigger locks are a waste and a danger. If somebody is in your house, you’re in danger. If he sees you pointing a gun at him telling him to leave, he most likely will. there are easier targets to be found. If he sees you fumbling around trying to unlock a trigger lock, your danger just got worse. The situation is escalated because he now sees himself in a life or death situation, but the threat to his life is in a vulnerable position.

having NO gun is better than having a useless locked one, because at least then you don’t have the false sense of security.

The only solution is to watch your kids and teach them. If your kids aren’t old enough to understand “stay out of daddy’s room” then they aren’t old enough to be running around unsupervised anyway. I grew up around a house full of firearms, and I’ve been shooting since I was a small child, but I never messed with my dad’s guns. Because as soon as I was old enough to be fascinated and curious, he took me out and showed me how to use them. That did 2 things: a) Took away the mystery and taboo about guns, and b) prepared me to handle them safely and responsibly.

Anyway, shoot often (LEGALLY!!! Don’t shoot just anywhere, find out what the laws are where you live, and be safe. Nobody wants to commit a firearms crime unnecessarily) and have fun. Keep in mind that ideally, your gun will be a source of recreation and fun more than a defense tool. So use it and practice. If you ever need to use it defensively, you want to feel comfortable with it, not like you’re using an unfamiliar thing for the first time.

15

You are 20 years old and live in California? I think you better check the state laws.

You must be 21 to legally purchase a handgun in California.

Here’s the latest gun news from California dated 9/1/00.

[quote]
Thanks to a massive grassroots effort by California NRA members, the California Rifle & Pistol Association, and Gun Owners of California, AB 273, which sought to severely restrict, license, and tax prospective handgun buyers, met its defeat late Wednesday night. Anti-gun Assemblyman Jack Scott (D-Altadena), a longtime thorn in the side of gun owners and the bill’s chief sponsor, worked fervently until the eleventh hour to gather enough votes from members of his own party in an effort to gain the bill’s passage.

However, in the end, the combination of tens of thousands of phone calls from gun owners, opposition by members of California’s law enforcement community, and a final parliamentary maneuver orchestrated by pro-gun Assemblyman Rod Wright (D-Los Angeles) created an insurmountable roadblock that ensured AB 273’s demise.

AB 273 was one of the most blatant attempts to dismantle the Second Amendment that California’s gun owners had ever faced. The measure would have required all handgun buyers to be fingerprinted, pass a shooting proficiency test, and then register all handguns at the point of purchase before being licensed by the California Department of Justice to simply possess a handgun. AB 273 also contained a provision which would have treated law-abiding gun owners just like registered sex offenders, requiring them to notify law enforcement whenever they moved.

Although this was a big defeat for Assemblyman Scott and the anti-gun forces in the California General Assembly, Scott vows that he will pursue his licensing scheme if he is successful in his bid for the State Senate, and if the chamber maintains its anti-gun tilt after the November Elections.

16

Maybe Fnord is coming up on his 21st birthday and is planning ahead.

Also, if California is pretty restrictive about guns, then it may be very hard to get a CCW permit. Laws on CCW permits differ greatly from state to state. In my state (Maryland) it’s all but impossible to get a permit. About the only people who can get them are people who need the gun as part of their job.

17

Southern Style raises some good points. If you think that your mom or girlfriend may need to use a gun, they would be far more comfortable with a smaller caliber. Likewise if you have small hands (no jokes please :slight_smile: )

Aplogies in advance, but this is a long post…and I know of people who have gotten into various forms of trouble with guns in their home, so if it can be prevented for someone else, I’ll be happy.

I would recommend the 9mm for one simple reason: practice.
Practice, practice, practice. And when you’re done, you practice some more. You should make range time a somewhat regular thing. If you are going to own a gun, you must be absolutely sure of yourself and your weapon. I am by no means a gun person, but I have a 9mm Ruger and Mrs. Wolf has a .22 Magnum, for exactly the same reasons as you describe: home protection. Since I now live in Alabama, I can legally carry, but I really don’t feel the need to. I survived NYC for 30 years just fine without a gun. But since I am now a home owner, I’ll be damned if some mutt is going to break in and rob my ass, so I understand your viewpoint.

Getting back to practice, you really owe it to yourself and anyone who may be around to become the most proficient shot possible, and quite frankly, you should shoot to kill. Two shots at the center of the chest should do it. Forget about a head shot - you might be able to plink a target at 25 yards, but try shooting something when you’re scared shitless, and it’s quite a different story. Believe me, if someone is in your house, I don’t care how rough and tough you might be, you’ll be scared, and your hands will be shaking.

The advantage of a 9mm is that practice ammo is usually cheaper. You can easily shoot $20 worth of practice rounds at a range (most ranges will carry reloads for practice). The higher the caliber, the more $$$. When your gun is home and at the ready, in a safe or whatever you choose, you make sure you keep a full clip of hollow points, and chamber a bullet. Hollow or split point ammo offers very good stopping power even at 9mm. Small neat hole going in, big gaping wound going out. They have more of a kick, so you should shoot them every so often at a range just to familarize yourself. For example, once you’re comfortable with your gun, pack a clip with 8 or 10 rounds, and alternate between practice rounds and hollow points (I kind of like Cor-Bons), and fire away - you’ll be able to gauge the difference. You don’t want to be surprised if you should ever need to fire your weapon at home.

Again, Southern Style is right - the chances are very slim of having to use a gun, but you should also do whatever you can as far as preventive measures. It may sound elementary, but many people overlook things like: locking your doors, using deadbolts that are keyed from the inside (and leave the key handy when you’re home, like on top of the door frame), adequate lighting outside your home, don’t let bushes grow so big in front of windows that someone could hide behind them, etc. etc. I would advise anyone to check with their local cops about crime prevention tips - they will be more than happy to teach you. Do whatever you can to prevent someone from breaking in to begin with. You really don’t want to have to kill someone.
If nothing else, it makes a big bloody mess on your carpet. However, you should realize that if you don’t kill your attacker, you are open to a lawsuit. Just think about the times we live in. If you can collect money for spilling hot coffee in your lap, you can collect money for getting shot while robbing someone (and people have). You’d better thoroughly check the laws in your state regarding this stuff. Normally, you cannot shoot someone outside of your house, even if they are on your property. You can’t shoot someone for stealing your car. You can’t shoot someone in the back if they are fleeing your house. Generally, you can only use deadly force if your life is in jeopardy. I am not a lawyer or a cop, so please check into these things.

Also keep in mind that most confrontations in the home occur within 7-10 feet. Think about it - you wake up to someone in your bedroom, or you hear a noise, go to the next room and someone is standing there. You don’t have to be a marksman from 50 yards. Remember too that it will likely be dark in your house. You won’t be able to see your gunsights, unless your gun is fitted with glowing sights. If you’ve ever shot a gun at night, you will know what a muzzle blast is - a blinding flash of light that will blind you and anyone else around. Firing a gun in a small space is deafening - at any indoor range, you are required to use hearing protection. I know of someone whose gun went off inside of a car - he is now deaf in one ear. In short, firing a gun inside of a house is no picnic.

Make sure you know how to break down your gun and put it back together quickly - it will help you to know your weapon. At the range, practice having the gun on the shooting table, picking it up quickly and firing. If your home is invaded, you will not be standing there in a shooter’s stance waiting. Make sure that anyone else who may pick up your gun knows this stuff as well. When I go to the range, I take Mrs. Wolf with me (she is a good shot, don’t piss her off :)) If I am in a struggle, I know she’s got my back. Make sure you know who’s in your house - too many people have been killed accidentally. If you get a gun, remind your friends to never come banging on your window at 2AM. Keep your gun clean, and NEVER keep practice ammo in a loaded clip when you may need to defend yourself. Nothing sucks worse than a gun jam. Read your manual front to back, and read it again!!!

To sum up, please be careful about using a gun, and don’t ever leave one around where kids can get to it. Sorry about the l-o-n-g post, but this ain’t play time, it could literally be a life and death issue.

Whew! That’s enough for me, I’m outta here…

18

DAMN! That’s what happens when you post from work and have a reply window open for an hour - 6 other people reply by time you send!!! Good points, all of 'em. There’s a lot to consider, fnord…

19

Just a nitpick, but the .40 version of the Beretta model 92 is the model 96. I’m facing the same dilemma, about the exact same gun. I’m going with the .40, FWIW.

20

Should you suprise and kill a burglar, make SURE that the body is inside your house when the police arrive. Otherwise, you may well find yourself in a HEAP of trouble-the relatives of the dead burglar will probably SUE you.