Looting and the 2024 election?

Of course it’s a cost analysis. The balance point would depend on how expensive/hard to find workers are, which is up right now, which favors more self-checkouts.

Oddly, the Giant Eagles around here have self-checkouts, but they also have plenty of open human-staffed registers. I don’t know how they’re managing to hold on to the employees, but it seems like that would be the worst of both worlds for them (though convenient for consumers): As long as there’s even one self-checkout, the thieves will prefer it, but they’re still paying lots of wages.

Presumably not far from were the use of self checkout is today. Retailers certainly know of the issue. And know which of their locations or which sorts of stores have a larger or smaller problem.

As always the wildcard is changing public behavior. If more people get more brazen about self-checkout fraud (ring something cheap, take something expensive instead) or outright theft (ring one thing, take that and 3 more), the optimal tradeoff point will change.

There are other techniques that can assist with reducing retail theft. If you skim articles about Costco, they note other factors.

One is treating your employees well. Most theft is done in-house. And having loyal employees also increase their incentive to be mindful of the theft they may see.

Additionally, they control the exits, and check receipts.

Another option is to make entry contingent on being a subscriber (with a credit card tied to the account). This allows people to “scan and go” with their merchandise without formally checking out; it also ensures that people can be charged for anything they may try to take.

(I can imagine this becoming a feature of stores in the future. We’ll end up in a society where not having a bank card - accessible through your phone - makes it nearly impossible to navigate society. Isn’t this basically true already in some Asian countries?)

Also, an FYI:
If you are using self checkout, you are being recorded in several ways. What is in your hands can be seen, and if you “skip scan” by not scanning every item you hold, or if you try to “ticket switch” so a mid priced item scans for $1.99, it will be noticed.

Over the last month in San Francisco there has been numerous smash and grabs and a few nights ago in Philadelphia… I can see how possible injustice in a shoot is retaliated with the looting of merchants who nothing to do it. When the voting public sees this I believe the middle of the road independent voters will go conservative at the booth. IMHO

San Francisco & Philadelphia but please don’t think the public has forgotten the BLM protests that turned in “looting or theft “depending on how you see it. I’d hate to see this make a difference in the 2024 election

Isolated robberies/looting in two separate cities over a year before the election are going to drive independents to vote for the GOP more than a year later? Sure.

You are correct, but many white republican especially in the south don’t see it that way, I have family members who watch Fox News exclusively! They see things though a very different lens! And there are millions…No try a third of are country have similar to Hanitty and company version of Jan 6th and they are serious as a heartache about it.

Well then you can just put looting on the pile with immigrant invasion, Biden dementia, transgender grooming, and whatever other bugaboo the right is trying to push as a crisis caused by the Democrats. Until there is evidence it has reached the national consciousness outside the right wind bubble I think the Dems have bigger fish to fry.

But does the perception exist outside of people who are already committed conservatives?

You forgot to add the 91 felony charges against the Biden Crime Syndicate to that list!

Oops, I just checked my notes and I had those in the wrong column. Nevermind!

Which BLM protest do you mean? The 2014 armed standoff in Nevada or the 2016 armed standoff in Oregon?

I appreciate the OP’s concern.

Kind of? I’m not going to vote Republican no matter what on account of their cowardice following the the January 6th insurrection, but it’s been my perception that San Francisco has had some quality of life problems for the last few years that includes homelessness, trash and human feces on the streets, and petty property crimes including vandalism and theft.

Geez. do I have to spell it out for you? [/sarcasm]

Don’t you watch Fox news?*

Fox says it’s a trend; And if Fox says it, then you know it has to be absolutely, 100% true.
Fox runs articles almost every day with a title such as “mass looting in Democrat city” .

Fox needs its cause du jour for inducing fear and panic.
They haven’t mentioned CRT (critical race theory) recently, but the looting stories have been a constant theme for months now. .It’s an easy target. So my guess is that this is a theme which Fox news will continue to emphasize until election day.
After all, when looting happens, it is mostly in cities, and most cities are “Democrat” territory. Also, the stores often have photographic evidence from security cameras, which shows the skin color of the perpetrators.

So my guess is that this “current trend” will continue . (The “trend” being the style of reporting, more than the actual facts)

Looting is an emotional issue. You see it on camera, you know it is wrong, you hate it…and you feel like screaming “somebody should do something to stop this”

For swing voters ,it is their emotions which affect who they decide to vote for.
(they aren’t informed about complicated issues).
The election in November will be determined by these swing voters—a few thousand people in a few states.

If those “Democrat cities” don’t do something , then yes, Biden will lose votes.
Quite possible enough votes to swing the election.

To paraphrase the old X Files show: “The Trump is out there.”
And he has a very, very realistic chance to win re-election


*Know your enemy, folks.
.

You know what? As a retail worker in one of these liberal west coast cities that the Fox News crowd are constantly scaremongering about, this is actually an area in which I’m qualified to offer my opinion for once!

I should state right off that I work at a grocery store, not a department store or a boutique, so flash mobs and smash-and-grabs aren’t the kind of theft we deal with. We mainly deal with a few distinct varieties of shoplifter; petty thieves trying to sneak a few things out in their pockets or in their backpack or what have you, “cart pushes” where someone loads up a cart with merchandise and then just walks out hoping nobody notices, people who underscan or price-switch at self-checkout, and check fraud being the biggies.

Yes, shoplifting is up the last few years, but it’s not up by a MASSIVE amount, and it has nothing to do with lefty liberal libtards “defunding the police” or anything like that. There are, in my experience, a couple of factors at work that have little or nothing to do with politics.

Firstly, it’s not always wise or prudent to try to stop every thief. Under state law, businesses have the right to detain suspected shoplifters for up to 4 hours before either releasing them or handing them over to law enforcement. It’s basically a form of citizen’s arrest. However, it’s also very easy for us to get sued for false imprisonment if we make a mistake, so corporate has some pretty strict rules about confronting shoplifters. Rank-and-file employees, including lower management types like myself, are NOT allowed to confront shoplifters; only trained Loss Prevention staff can do that. We can “help” someone ring up their stuff if they’re underscanning, or if we suspect a cart push, we can invent a reason to hang out by the door and watch them so that they get to scared to try it, or we can just follow them around semi-discreetly in a way that shows them that they know they’re being watched, but unless LP is on the case, if they try to leave with the merch, we let them. We’re open 24 hours, but we don’t have LP on duty for 24 hours - we’d like to, and we’ve been constantly hiring for LP for awhile now, but unemployment is at a record low, there are more job openings out there then there are people looking for work, and it’s a difficult job that not many people want to take even for the amount of money we pay. If someone decides to steal from us late at night when there’s no LP on hand, we just have to treat that as a cost of doing business, especially seeing as we’re now the only 24-hour grocery store in the county (all our formerly 24-hour competitors, including Walmart, started closing overnight during the pandemic and haven’t gone back) and we don’t want to give up that market.

Even when LP is watching a suspected thief (we’ve got cameras EVERYWHERE except in the bathrooms), there’s a series of criteria that have to be fulfilled before they’re allowed to stop them. They have to observe the suspect selecting product off the shelf, maintain unbroken surveillance on them from that point on, and watch them pass all payment points and attempt to leave the store without paying, at which point they’re allowed to make the stop. If the suspect takes the merch into the bathroom, we often can’t stop them, because for all we know they ditched the merch in the bathroom before leaving the building and there’s not always time to send someone in there to search for discarded packaging before they make their escape.

Then there’s safety - our LP carry handcuffs and wear Kevlar vests under their clothes, but they’re otherwise unarmed, and we’re not going to attempt to confront an armed person. If they’re visibly carrying a weapon, we don’t engage. If they brandish a weapon during the stop, we back off and let them go. (There’s only one case I know of where this rule was broken and the person responsible didn’t get fired; in 2021, a Proud Boy tried to cart-push about $800 worth of stuff, and when our LP guys confronted him, he pepper-sprayed two of them and then tried to draw a gun on our assistant manager who was with them. Said manager is a retired Army paratrooper and disarmed the Proud Boy, wrestled him to the ground, and held him there until the cops showed up. That guy’s now doing a 10 year prison sentence.) If there’s a group of people shoplifting together, we don’t engage unless the LP can round up enough other employees that we outnumber them. If the shoplifter is a woman and we only have male LPs working, we don’t engage unless LP can get a female employee as a witness to ensure that nothing untoward happens once the suspect is in the LP office. Ditto for having an employee witness if the suspect is a minor. We also aren’t allowed to pursue them if they make it off the sidewalk and into the parking lot - in my training I was shown the video of the incident that caused that policy to be adopted, and it wasn’t pretty.

Next, the George Floyd killing changed some things. Our LP used to have pretty much free reign in how they went about detaining someone. In the past I’ve seen them smash people against vending machines, lock MMA holds on them, or straight up ground-and-pound them until they stop resisting. (I’ve had the opportunity to read a few of the written reports our LP have to fill out to document stops, and the phrase “I escorted the suspect to the ground” covers a lot of territory.) We don’t do that these days, because it looks bad and draws negative attention to the business. Our LP used to be plainclothes - now they wear uniforms that identify them as store security, they aren’t allowed to use physical force unless the suspects attack them first, and they’re no longer allowed to use chokeholds or any amount of force beyond what’s necessary to handcuff them and get them into the office. (I did once see one of our LP guys fireman-carry a suspect into the office, which was most comical.)

Next, there’s the fact that our LP’s attention is divided these days. Homelessness has been an increasingly big problem here recently, just as it has been in every major city in the US, and with that comes unhoused people and junkies (of which there is unfortunately a lot of overlap) looking for a place to sleep or get their fix. The former is potentially a major can of worms, because recent court rulings have made it very difficult to evict homeless campers from their squat, even on private property, and it takes no time at all for a massive homeless encampment to crop up anywhere property owners aren’t being vigilant and months to clear it out once one forms - basically, the police can’t clear an encampment unless they have somewhere else for the people living there to go. The Hobby Lobby down the road from us had an encampment on the edge of their property for the better part of a year until recently when the county moved all the people living there into a motel that the county bought and turned into a shelter. We haven’t had to deal with that, but it hasn’t been for lack of trying on their part. I’d estimate that our LP spend about as much time kicking campers and tweakers out of our parking lot as they do watching actual shoplifters these days, and we even had to bring in a uniformed security guard in a liveried car to patrol the lot at night and watch for people trying to set up.

The last reason does have to do with law enforcement policy - but it’s got nothing to do with politics, and everything to do with covid. When the pandemic hit, maintaining social distancing was as important in the justice system as it was everywhere else, which meant that police simply stopped arresting most nonviolent offenders, regardless of whether the amount of stuff they tried to steal was enough to bump the offense from “petty larceny” to “burglary”. We don’t always call the cops on shoplifters - usually, if they’re cooperative, we get to assess them a civil penalty of $250 + the value of the stuff they tried to steal, trespass them, and send them on their way. However, it’s become a fact of life that the cops often wouldn’t respond to shoplifting calls unless the suspect tries to fight us (which elevates it to “robbery” in this state), and the courts have been so backlogged because of the shutdown in 2020 that there can be a period of years between when a shoplifting occurs and it goes to trial if it ever does. It was only within the last month that our newly elected county sheriff (who, despite being one of those loony leftist radical reformers who ran our former corrupt-as-hell drunk-driving MAGA sheriff out of office last year, has been featured on Fox News because of his “tough” stance on crime) announced that the covid emergency in our county jail was over and they could resume those kind of arrests, but the criminal element has definitely been emboldened by the belief that the cops don’t care about minor thefts anymore.

There’s a limit on what we can realistically do to prevent theft. Liquor and baby formula are kept at customer service where they’re under supervision and are locked up when it’s not staffed. Laundry detergent is at the back of the store where it isn’t practical for someone to run in, grab it, and run out. Sometimes, when we “let” a thief get away and they drive off in their car parked in the lot, we’re able to get their plate on camera, we call it in, and the cops stop them at home and recover the merch, but that’s not the part of the story that thieves hear about, and it doesn’t always work out that way. If a smash-and-grab or flash mob type robbery did happen, we’d be completely unequipped to deal with it, and even with all the security footage we’d have on hand the cops would probably be hard-pressed to identify most of the perpetrators.

What it really all boils down to is that the factors going into the problem of retail theft are practical, not political. You could replace all our elected officials overnight and it wouldn’t change the factors at play. Wherever large groups of people live in a concentrated area there will be poverty, and where there is poverty there will be theft, the circumstances of the times we live in make it difficult to make a meaningful dent in it, and the media loves “crime out of control!” stories because scaring people makes for good ratings.

I also share the OP’s concern. I know plenty of older folks and young suburban parents–not conservatives–who are truly frightened by this type of crime, and blame the “defund the police” rhetoric of 2020. How will they vote, especially in local elections? I think it’s a mistake to blow off their fears.

It seems like we’re going in two directions in this topic:

  1. Is looting/retail theft etc. a real and growing problem, and is it specific to certain locales

  2. Is there a perception that it is, that would favor Republicans in 2024

I’m pretty sure #2 is a yes, and I certainly know people who are on the fence between Trump and Biden in particular, and #2 will work on them. And in places like Arizona and Pennsylvania, you don’t have to move too many voters.

But bear in mind it is possible for #1 to be false and #2 to be true.

Maybe it’s just me but there seems to be a rather large difference in this comparison of issues between a stand-off & people being injured and property damage in New York, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Los Angeles, Oakland, Milwaukee, Kansas City to name a few ? But then that’s just my opinion

Perhaps it was the way you phrased it?

Despite a determined promotion of a narrative deliberately conflating the BLM protesters with looters and rioters amongst right-wing media, this is not an assertion largely supported by the facts. The vast majority of BLM protests across the country were peaceful and involved no looting, theft or damage. Where looting, rioting and damage occurred during the protests, those committing those acts and BLM protesters were often not the same, and there is certainly no justification for asserting, implying or assuming so without specific evidence.

In the “standoffs” involving the Bundys, it is explicitly clear who was committing the crimes and what crimes they were committing, including the perpetrators stating outright their intentions and backing up those statements with a considerable amount of weaponry.

The reasons why law enforcement were willing to fire on unarmed protesters, journalists and even bystanders on their own properties during the Floyd protests but not to engage with a group of armed right-wing white men on government land literally threatening to shoot them are, perhaps, the subject for a different thread.

The closest thing to what you’re talking about occurred when donald trump was president a few years ago. I don’t get why that would be a Democratic albatross? Cities were “burning” under Republican leadership.

Do people think those protests are still ongoing?