Quoth Drain Bead, in her wall on Oredigger:
I took that to mean that what was off was Suburban Plankton. He thought that his play was a little off, and so voted him, but then was surprised when he turned out to be correct, since it’s so rare to nab a Scum Day 1.
Quoth special ed:
Except for the part where you vote for someone just for not having the vanilla PM. You did do that part.
way to think under the box.
If I had done none of it, it’s unlikely that peeker would have said what he did.
I realize that you play the game differently. I realize you’ve concluded that I’m Scum and therefore every comment I make will be evaluated by you in that light. But this is just silly.
Had I known the handshaking would fail, I would not have tried it. That’s what Meeko asked. Obviously, I didn’t know it would fail, and so I tried it. Yes, there was some fall out. Part of that fallout is that peeker leaked his possible non-Vanillaness to me. It happened in NSFW between the 2 of us (though not until day 5 and only during a discussion of the difference between Vanilla and Useless in that game.)
Now, of course why wouldn’t I vote for peeker if he slipped like that? especially when you couple it with the change in his play style. You might not play that way, I think you’re more conservative and value keeping Town power roles alive. I’m less conservative and am willing to risk outing a power role if there’s a good chance of catching a Scum. I think peeker is part of that case. The only reason I’m not voting for him now is because of what I perceive as Astral trying to manipulate the voting yesterDay.
Sometimes, when trying to find a Scum, it helps to look at things from both perspectives. Is it plausible that I would have played this way as Scum? I’ll grant that it is. Is it plausible that I could have played this way as Town? It is.
Except from what you’ve said, you don’t think peeker is Scum! You think it’s likely that the Scum have the vanilla PM. If you’re correct on that[sup]*[/sup], then it’s impossible for peeker to be Scum. Even if you’re wrong about that, then that still doesn’t necessarily mean that he’s Scum, since it’s still possible for him to be a Town power role. If it’s unlikely that the Scum don’t have the vanilla PM, then it’s even more unlikely that peeker is Scum. The fact that, if you’re correct, he’s not only not Scum but is in fact a Town power role, is just icing on the cake.
Let me just reiterate that: If the reasoning you’ve used is correct, it means you were voting for a Town power role. So either it’s a bad vote because the reasoning it’s based on is flawed, or it’s a bad vote because it’s for a Townie. No matter how you look at it, it was a bad vote.
*and correct that peeker doesn’t have the vanilla role PM, but if you’re incorrect about that, then your entire case falls apart.
Thanks for the correction. I was going off the first vote count I found by Mahaloth that was around the time Ed started catching Suburban. I didn’t realize that you were missing a vote in that one.
So if we add your vote into Ed, this makes it look even more so like Chipacabra was trying to protect suburban with his voting record.
So I’m happy with my vote right where it is.
It’s amazing. Now you’re confident that you know my thought processes.
I don’t know if he’s Scum. I think it’s possible.
You’re wrong again. See, by that point, everyone had the Vanilla PM because I’d posted it.
Now, I think it’s likely, but not given, the Scum have the Vanilla PM, but imagine this:
Again, you’re assuming perfect play from the Scum. I’m not sure why you’re expecting that.
Couple that with his change in posting style and he earned my vote.
So, peeker, are you going to address my comment in this post (1292): http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12826634&postcount=1292
Yes, there’s this amazing technique whereby one human can learn the thought processes of another. It’s called language. What I know about your thought processes, I know because you told me. But to answer your numbered points:
1: If the vanilla PM the Scum got was different from the real one, then your handshake would still have worked. But you’ve already declared that that was a failure.
2: A legitimate vanilla would have had the exact same attitude towards their PM. Why should a vanilla townie pay much heed to their PM? A power role needs to make sure they know all the details of their power, but vanilla doesn’t have any details.
3: Again, if this were the case, handshakes would still work. And “peeker obviously ignored my posting my PM. Scum might have ignored my posting my PM. Therefore peeker is Scum” doesn’t make sense as a logical argument.
Oredigger wondered why Telcontar didn’t self-protect. Hoopy questioned his statement and offered the possibility of a scum roleblocker who blocked Telcontar as part of a scum block and kill strategy. He seemed to consider only the possibility that scum killed Telcontar. I added other reasons for Telcontar’s death including a possible Town roleblocker, a possible Vig or SK kill, and a possible game mechanic. When looking through Telcontar’s post I could see several reasons why scum may have wanted to kill him (failed handshakes may have exposed him as a power role, his initial case on Suburban gained a lot of traction, threats to review several players) but also noted possible reasons for a non-scum to have targeted him (quick unvote and suggestion not to lynch Suburban, threats to review several players).
To answer your specific question, I added the possible non-scum reason for killing him to the 3rd bullet point only to contrast the other bullet points which could be interpreted either way or were reasons why scum may have killed him.
So Ed…how do you feel about shoes?
The feeling I’m getting is that Ed got both Glorfindel and Faramir. The Glorfindel might even have been a scum cover role. That would explain why he’s so determined to lynch anyone who claims that name. It makes me think he’s slightly more likely to be Town. To be totally sure of course would require Maha to confirm that or that Ed has a restriction, which might as well be the same as confirming Ed. Or if he denied it, it’s the same as convicting Ed. Clearly, he knows better than to do either, so Ed will have to hang out in that nebulous leaning Town area for now.
But see, you’re over simplifying. And if you happen to be an expert in understanding others, you probably wouldn’t be.
no comment
How can I be “entirely confused” by it, if I went in and shook as well? It is scummy because scum now know to shoot in the dark, rather than play with anyone that ate your alphabet soup.
The Handshake got us NOWHERE.
Understand this Ed : a lot of us fell for your … well it certainly is NOT a handshake. It’s everything but a handshake. It’s a boon to scum. As I said, even if you meant it in a pro-town manner, we must now evaluate it as the tool scum is using it as.
I don’t know Ed, if you can un-ring this gong, then I might unvote you. But, all the gongs I know about, can’t be un-rang.
It’s one worse than Peeker, as you have the Vig targets already online for the firing squad.
**And it’s not like your are confirmed town, either. **
First, I’ve never said I was confirmed Town.
Second, I was using what you said in the thread to determine your level of confusion. While it’s true that you did seem to particapte in the handshake by stating numbers of letters (which, of course would be an odd thing to do if you felt it was Scummy) Here are some of your posts. Underlining is mine
Post 485
From post 550 (snipped) where you compare it to something that it really cannot be compared to.
Post 584
From post 778 (snipped and underlining mine) Here you say I’ve improved my Townie cred by handshaking, even though the handshaking had failed miserably, and then you ask if it has worked.
Even toDay in post 1336 where you cast your vote for me, you still seem to wonder about the handshake despite the fact that everyone else in the game, myself included, has determined that it failed. (and, I honestly have no idea what you mean when you say I am a good candidate for vote soon, vote often.
So, yes, it appeared to me that you didn’t understand the handshake.
You are more than welcome to your opinion. Which incidentally, gets to my point that we will never understand each other. The feeling remains mutual. The only way we [That is, Meeko and Ed specifically] can get through this, or any game we play in, without adding volume [and very little value], is to agree to disagree.
We have different opinions. Right now, nothing can definitely be said for their value.
Just as you can have your opinions, I can have my votes. This gets at voting often. It’s a mangled paraphrasing of someone else’s philosophy, taken from a quote from a real politician I believe. If I understand the Mafia context of the quote, it would seem to imply liberal use of the place holder vote, and not to only play in games where one can hold multiple votes at once.
That is to say, I am adding to this game what I can. Other, more experienced players are adding what they can. At the time I placed the vote for you, I was more inclined to change it later, after time and other comments on the current game state came in.
I would advise against you going for the “Since you don’t understand me, you shouldn’t vote for me.” We both have stated that you have not been confirmed as town. I still see the entire instigation of a shake that led a night one power town role kill as being scummy. And, I think we still have some time left on the day.
We have other things still outstanding… Pleonast… Pleonast? Anyone? Pleonast?
1,3: OK, what are some of the reasons that handshaking wouldn’t work, that wouldn’t invalidate your reason for voting peeker?
2: For the same reason, I doubt that a Scum with a copy of the PM would be unaware of it.
4: First of all, you didn’t include your metagame reasons in your vote post, only adding them after I attacked those reasons. Second, your metagame reason also stinks.
5: Maybe you’re not convinced, but you were convinced enough to vote for him, which is close enough.
6: If there are any third parties in this game, then I would expect that they’d have been given the same protection against handshakes that Scum were.
On a completely separate subject, the death of Telcontar: Yet another possibility is that he guessed (correctly or not) that the Scum have a roleblocker, and that they would block the same person they killed, so self-protection would be useless. Scum having a roleblocker is common enough, and when they do, the tactic of blockkilling is also common enough, at least until they’ve dealt with the Doctor in some other way. There’s a lot of rock-paper-scissors involved in playing a Doctor, and many ways that things can potentially go wrong.
I still don’t know why people are voting to lynch the one guy with a (basically) confirmed vanilla Town PM. Seems like Ed having that PM and being scum hinges on several tenuous assumptions that I’m not comfortable making at this point, particularly when we have better candidates.
fuck.
<snipped>
no, i think at 786 you said you were outed as a niller.
then at 793 you indicated that the “handshake” was futile.
then at 944 you reference when you “flip town”.
so were you outed as scum and knew the handshake would not work and now are trying to obfuscate with the “flip town”? or do you have a more plausible explanation for me and peekcat v3.4 and peekkid#7a.
[oog]i got some bad personal news last night right before ed made his post. i should have just turned off the damn computer and gone for a walk. i apologize to all the players and mods in this game, especially ed. it was unwarranted. [/oog]
<snipped>
and from one of the most unlikliest places (except that it is not too much of a reach, knowing the source) comes something that genuinely made my day.
In the same sense that Chronos said he was outed as a power role.
and it was, wasn’t it?
I know what I will flip. I never said I was confirmed Town to anyone else
Can you point to where I’m outed as Scum?
And I apologize to you. Offending you was certainly the farthest thing from my intent. I enjoy playing with you and I certainly respect you as a person. I hope all will be well.