Lost 3.20: "The Man Behind the Curtain"

Cafe Society
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[QUOTE=Farmwoman]
Kelvin’s gas masks were for Desmond’s benefit. He was trying to keep Des trapped in the hatch while he (Kelvin) fixed the boat.
[/quote]

Right – that was a big hoax, as Desmond started to realize when he saw the tear in Kelvin’s “quarantine suit”.

However, I’d guess that there must be more of a reason for the whole quarantine hoax than just Kelvin’s wanting to keep Desmond occupied while he fixed the boat. (Although that made a very convenient excuse for Kelvin). The hatch door also had QUARANTINE written on it, and the Dharma vaccine wasn’t specific just to the Swan station. So there has to be more of a reason to the whole quarantine/vaccine bit. We even saw somebody getting a shot (although I don’t know if it was the official vaccine or not) in this episode, where new arrivals were getting their work assignments.

True, but still I wonder whether Ben really knew what the button was for. Because if he did, it wouldn’t make sense for him to play mind-fuck with Locke (“I never pushed the button…”) – that might lead to Locke questioning things and NOT pushing the button, which presumably makes everybody die. Probably not in Ben’s best interest, from Ben’s point of view.

For that reason, I don’t think Ben really understood the importance of the button, even if he had previously observed Desmond typing in the code at the computer from the Pearl monitors.

262

[QUOTE=well he’s back]
& that Ben still kept the carving
[/QUOTE]
I really, really hope I’m not the only one who kept thinking, “Why is Ben holding a dildo? …Oh, right, it’s that wooden doll thing.”

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[QUOTE=Monstre]
However, I’d guess that there must be more of a reason for the whole quarantine hoax than just Kelvin’s wanting to keep Desmond occupied while he fixed the boat. (Although that made a very convenient excuse for Kelvin). The hatch door also had QUARANTINE written on it, and the Dharma vaccine wasn’t specific just to the Swan station. So there has to be more of a reason to the whole quarantine/vaccine bit. We even saw somebody getting a shot (although I don’t know if it was the official vaccine or not) in this episode, where new arrivals were getting their work assignments.
True, but still I wonder whether Ben really knew what the button was for. Because if he did, it wouldn’t make sense for him to play mind-fuck with Locke (“I never pushed the button…”) – that might lead to Locke questioning things and NOT pushing the button, which presumably makes everybody die. Probably not in Ben’s best interest, from Ben’s point of view.

For that reason, I don’t think Ben really understood the importance of the button, even if he had previously observed Desmond typing in the code at the computer from the Pearl monitors.
[/QUOTE]

Kelvin knew the quarantine was a hoax because he would remove his mask as soon as he was out of Desmond’s sight. But he also seemed to believe he was saving the world by pushing the button, hence his delight at having Desmond show up and relieve him. The real question, posed upthread, is whether Kelvin was an original Dharmite or a hostile placed in the Swan to save the world. And I’m still confused regardless of the answer:

If he was one of Ben’s group, why would they leave him there alone for years? If the hostiles understood the significance of pushing the button, it seems they would deploy regular shifts of two workers as Marvin Candle had laid down as correct procedure. If they thought the button was just a button, why would they place one of their own down there doing a repetitive task, senseless for eternity?

If, on the other hand, Kelvin was Dharma, why would they leave an original Dharmite ungassed for years? They seemed to be aware of what was going on in the Swan via video from the Pearl and it would be easy enough to toss a canister into the hatch. Unless they thought Kelvin’s task was important, in which case, they should have stormed the joint and done it themselves. Perhaps the button pushing saved, not the entire world, but only the world the button-pusher inhabited.

My guess is that Ben knew the button was important, but only important to the Swan. I think the result of not pushing the button would simply be the destruction of the Swan hatch, despite Desmond’s belief that it brought down flight 815. I think the rest of the island would have gone on without incident if the Swan was destroyed.

He mind-fucked Locke because he wanted Locke to lose faith. I believe Ben knew, even then, that Locke had a degree of island connection he didn’t, and it was that connection he was there to destroy. Didn’t he tell John he was there for him? Perhaps not to take him, but to take his belief that he was special…that he was doing something special. Destroying the faith of one man probably wouldn’t result in everyone failing to push the button, and even if it did, again, I believe the island would have been just fine without the Swan.

However, he didn’t seem to know about the key, and Kelvin’s knowledge of it points to Kelvin being Dharma pre-hostile. The sky turning purple is the only island event about which Ben’s group are as clueless as our Losties. I wish I had access to those episodes from last season to hear exactly what Kelvin, and then Desmond, said about the key.

Didn’t someone suggest there was less to discuss? :confused:

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[QUOTE=Farmwoman]
I wish I had access to those episodes from last season to hear exactly what Kelvin, and then Desmond, said about the key.
[/QUOTE]

You can see a transcript of 2x23-2x24 “Live Together, Die Alone” here
From that episode:

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OK, my take on Ben and the button…

There is obviously some piece of Dharma still in existence off the Island; someone is still making those Dharma-brand food drops anyway.

Even after the Purge, it seems as if Ben and the Others wanted to make it appear as if Dharma was still running things on the Island, if for no other reason than to keep the supply drops underway. So they did whatever they needed to do to maintain the charade. They kept Mikhail at the Flame station to keep it operational, for example.

They knew someone was entering numbers in the Swan station but probably didn’t know why. But, they probably figured that if the numbers weren’t entered then someone from Dharma would notice and come to investigate. But, they didn’t want to put any of their own people there to keep entering them either. So, they left things as they were.

Ben didn’t care if the Losties continued entering the numbers or not. He may have assumed that if Dharma did show up to check on things and noticed something wrong they would blame the people on the beach instead of looking too closely at what had happened elsewhere on the Island.

Just speculation…

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Thanks for the transcript Monstre. While the dialogue doesn’t confirm my WAG, it doesn’t seem to contradict it either.

Back to blissfully enjoying the ride in a blindfold :stuck_out_tongue:

267

I’ve resisted posting to this thread because, as good as this episode was, I don’t think it can be properly understood until after the season finale; in short, I had the feeling we were seeing the first of a two- (or three-) parter. It’s not unusual for Lost to keep the viewer guessing, but the wealth of info in this episode made it seem as though there would be a bigger payoff in a short time.

That said, I see a lot of good discussion here, so I felt I had to comment:

[ul]
[li]I thought it was pretty clear–from last season’s finale–that the “Quarantine” message on the inside of the hatch were strictly so that Kelvin could continue deceiving Desmond. I see no reason to interpret the purge as the reason for the QUARANTINE.[/li][li]The timeline is still a little murky to me. First, we most likely have to conclude the Dharma project began sometime in the 1970’s, but Ben may have arrived on the island sometime after the project had kicked off, perhaps as late as the early '80’s (use of videotape in the Pearl hatch seems to indicate some construction in the early '80’s). This would put the purge (if we assume Ben is in his early-to-mid-20’s when he kills his father) in the 1995-2000 range. Again, this is all highly speculative, but…[/li][li]…this makes Danielle’s presence on the island harder to square with what she’s said. If she’s been shipwrecked on the island for 16 years–and her daughter Alex seems to confirm that–she should have been there for the purge. Given the Other’s control of the island, I just don’t believe she’s unknown to them. I’m beginning to suspect she’s an original Dharma member who somehow escaped the purge; she may, in fact, be Emily (Ben’s girlfriend). This would neatly explain why Ben assumes the role of Alexe’s father and why Emily/Danielle was spared the purge: Emily had a tryst with Ben, Ben then warned her labout the coming purge, which caused her to leave him horrified and possibly driven insane. Only later did she discover she was pregnant, and Ben naturally seized the baby. It also explains why she said “they’re dead, they’re all dead” in the broadcast message found in the pilot episode, and why she chose to help Claire escape from the Others search party.[/li][li]I do not believe Locke is dead; no major character has died without a flashback except Libby, and one could argue about her importance. Moreover, most die in episodes where they are at the center of the flashback, so based solely on the structure of the episode, it’s pretty clear Locke survives.[/li][/ul]
Overall I was pretty pleased with the pacing; even the revealation of Jacob was riveting, and given the buildup I was ready for a letdown. Something on this island is causing people to see/hear loved ones; the ability to interpret these visions correctly seems to be a key component of how the island spirit (via it’s manifestation in the smoke monster) rewards a person. Given his brother’s rather cryptic response–something like “you speak to me as if I am your brother”–Eko somehow misunderstood what he saw, and it cost him his life; Locke on the other hand is even more special now that he has heard Jacob speak.

These new and obvious loose ends really make me think a lot is going to be filled in over the next two weeks, which is why I see this episode as like a Part I of a two/three parter. We’ll see…

268

[QUOTE=CJJ*]
I’ve resisted posting to this thread because, as good as this episode was, I don’t think it can be properly understood until after the season finale; in short, I had the feeling we were seeing the first of a two- (or three-) parter. It’s not unusual for Lost to keep the viewer guessing, but the wealth of info in this episode made it seem as though there would be a bigger payoff in a short time.

That said, I see a lot of good discussion here, so I felt I had to comment:

[ul]
[li]I thought it was pretty clear–from last season’s finale–that the “Quarantine” message on the inside of the hatch were strictly so that Kelvin could continue deceiving Desmond. I see no reason to interpret the purge as the reason for the QUARANTINE.[/li][li]The timeline is still a little murky to me. First, we most likely have to conclude the Dharma project began sometime in the 1970’s, but Ben may have arrived on the island sometime after the project had kicked off, perhaps as late as the early '80’s (use of videotape in the Pearl hatch seems to indicate some construction in the early '80’s). This would put the purge (if we assume Ben is in his early-to-mid-20’s when he kills his father) in the 1995-2000 range. Again, this is all highly speculative, but…[/li][li]…this makes Danielle’s presence on the island harder to square with what she’s said. If she’s been shipwrecked on the island for 16 years–and her daughter Alex seems to confirm that–she should have been there for the purge. Given the Other’s control of the island, I just don’t believe she’s unknown to them. I’m beginning to suspect she’s an original Dharma member who somehow escaped the purge; she may, in fact, be Emily (Ben’s girlfriend). This would neatly explain why Ben assumes the role of Alexe’s father and why Emily/Danielle was spared the purge: Emily had a tryst with Ben, Ben then warned her labout the coming purge, which caused her to leave him horrified and possibly driven insane. Only later did she discover she was pregnant, and Ben naturally seized the baby. It also explains why she said “they’re dead, they’re all dead” in the broadcast message found in the pilot episode, and why she chose to help Claire escape from the Others search party.[/li][li]I do not believe Locke is dead; no major character has died without a flashback except Libby, and one could argue about her importance. Moreover, most die in episodes where they are at the center of the flashback, so based solely on the structure of the episode, it’s pretty clear Locke survives.[/li][/ul]
Overall I was pretty pleased with the pacing; even the revealation of Jacob was riveting, and given the buildup I was ready for a letdown. Something on this island is causing people to see/hear loved ones; the ability to interpret these visions correctly seems to be a key component of how the island spirit (via it’s manifestation in the smoke monster) rewards a person. Given his brother’s rather cryptic response–something like “you speak to me as if I am your brother”–Eko somehow misunderstood what he saw, and it cost him his life; Locke on the other hand is even more special now that he has heard Jacob speak.

These new and obvious loose ends really make me think a lot is going to be filled in over the next two weeks, which is why I see this episode as like a Part I of a two/three parter. We’ll see…
[/QUOTE]

Wasn’t Ben’s girlfriend (the childhood pal) named Annie?

269

Annie, I think it was. Annie = Danielle?

The only thing I can see that’s off from your post, CJJ*, is that it didn’t seem like Annie had any kind of accent even close to Mira Furlan’s. Other than that, it makes quite a lot of sense. If there were more Dharmites than Ben who went over to the Hostiles, I can definitely see why Rousseau figured they came down with some sort of sickness.

Wait, I thought of another potential hole: Rousseau is the one who brought Ben (then Henry Gale) to the Losties in the first place. She clearly would have no love for him, so if she recognized him, why wouldn’t she mention that? Maybe she’d hoped that the survivors would’ve killed him, like Locke did with Sawyer. That still doesn’t seem to square with what I remember of that episode, though.

270

What I want to know now is what is the source of Ben’s funding?

Dharma was funded by Hanso. Who funds the Hostiles? While Ben is still using Dharma equipment (didn’t he arrive on the sub?), he seems to have something of a budget. Is he convincing Dharma he is still with them (Mikhail, etc.)?

He seems to have quite an intelligence/operations network off the island and that ain’t cheap.

271

[QUOTE=CJJ*]
this makes Danielle’s presence on the island harder to square with what she’s said. If she’s been shipwrecked on the island for 16 years–and her daughter Alex seems to confirm that–she should have been there for the purge. Given the Other’s control of the island, I just don’t believe she’s unknown to them. I’m beginning to suspect she’s an original Dharma member who somehow escaped the purge; she may, in fact, be Emily (Ben’s girlfriend). This would neatly explain why Ben assumes the role of Alexe’s father and why Emily/Danielle was spared the purge: Emily had a tryst with Ben, Ben then warned her labout the coming purge, which caused her to leave him horrified and possibly driven insane. Only later did she discover she was pregnant, and Ben naturally seized the baby. It also explains why she said “they’re dead, they’re all dead” in the broadcast message found in the pilot episode, and why she chose to help Claire escape from the Others search party.
[/QUOTE]

Her name was Annie. If Annie = CFL, then she would have to have acquired a French accent along with her insanity. Also, CFL said Alex’s father was named Robert.

What search party did CFL help Claire escape from? It was Alex who helped Claire escape, wasn’t it? That was when she was in the Medical Bunker.

272

BTW, I do think there is more to CFL’s story than she lets on. It sure would be nice to get a backstory on her…

273

[QUOTE=John Mace]

What search party did CFL help Claire escape from? It was Alex who helped Claire escape, wasn’t it? That was when she was in the Medical Bunker.
[/QUOTE]

Didn’t CFL intervene after Alex helped Claire escape The Staff? IIRC, Claire was pretty disoriented and scratched CFL. And weren’t Ethan and co. giving chase at that point?

274

[QUOTE=Gfactor]
Didn’t CFL intervene after Alex helped Claire escape The Staff? IIRC, Claire was pretty disoriented and scratched CFL. And weren’t Ethan and co. giving chase at that point?
[/QUOTE]

OK. now I remember. And Claire recognized her when she came into camp to warn them about the black smoke.

I think we’d also have to assume that if Annie had gotten pregnant on The Island that she would dead now, along with her baby.

275

[QUOTE=John Mace]
BTW, I do think there is more to CFL’s story than she lets on. It sure would be nice to get a backstory on her…
[/QUOTE]

Seconded.

276

I’m a bit surprised that they’re running a clip show before the finale. For some reason I had the impression that they weren’t doing that with the new format.

277

[QUOTE=CJJ*]
Moreover, most die in episodes where they are at the center of the flashback, so based solely on the structure of the episode, it’s pretty clear Locke survives.
[/QUOTE]

Well… except Boone. He was critically injured during a Locke flashback (1x19 Deux Ex Machina), and he died during a Jack flashback (1x20 Do No Harm).

Although I agree that we probably haven’t quite seen the last of Locke, either.

278

I mis-identified “Annie” as "Emily’ in my post; thx to all who offered corrections.

[QUOTE=BayleDomon]
The only thing I can see that’s off from your post, CJJ*, is that it didn’t seem like Annie had any kind of accent even close to Mira Furlan’s.
[/quote]

I agree this is a problem, which is why I don’t completely buy the theory yet (going insane doesn’t ususally involve picking up a French accent).

This is easier to square knowing the meta-development of the story. The producers originally planned for Michael Emerson to be on for only three episodes. From the article: “Fans couldn’t get enough of this intriguing character, so the producers took a character only slated for three episodes, turned him into a series regular and made him the apparent leader of 'The Others.”

Thus, Danielle may always have been marked out as the Others’ leader’s former love interest, but the leader of the Others wasn’t originally set to be “Ben/Henry Gale” until fan interest prompted a story change to make these two characters the same person. This doesn’t mean the producers don’t have to explain Danielle’s original indifference to the captured Ben, but I expect a lot of hand-waving over this potential plothole.

[QUOTE=John Mace]
BTW, I do think there is more to CFL’s story than she lets on. It sure would be nice to get a backstory on her…
[/quote]

I agree; it’s pretty clear to me she is hiding a lot…

279

[QUOTE=CJJ*]
…

I agree this is a problem, which is why I don’t completely buy the theory yet (going insane doesn’t ususally involve picking up a French accent).

…
[/QUOTE]

Well, I think there was a case of a woman developing an accent after suffering a small stroke.
If Danielle is Annie, the only reason I could think that she would have turned Ben over to the Losties is because he may have manipulated her into doing it, maybe with the promise that he would let her see Alex.

As for her other story about her origins and her husband’s name, if she had any involvement with Ben then we can assume that she also lies a lot.

280

[QUOTE=John Mace]
BTW, I do think there is more to CFL’s story than she lets on. It sure would be nice to get a backstory on her…
[/QUOTE]
Significant practical obstacle to doing a pre-island flashback for Rousseau (presuming that her backstory starts elsewhere, of course): de-aging the performer 16 years. A hot shower and a couple of hours with a stylist would help a lot, but probably not 16 years worth.