LOTR - Elrond's massive fail

[Alka_Seltzer]

@Astral_Rejection

How does this power manifest? How would Galadriel fight someone? For instance, how would she deal with a simple brigand?

In the Tale of Years, it states that after Sauron was overthrown, Galadriel “threw down it’s walls and laid bare it’s pits”, referring to Dol Gulder.

Another example of elf magic is the flood of the ford of Bruinen, which washes the Nazgul away. Gandalf adds to it, but it isn’t his spell.

[Knorf]

Galadriel is undoubtedly powerful, but there is no evidence in the texts that any of her power is vested in the form of warfare. J.R.R.T. had very few female characters who were warriors in his books.

Galadriel has keen insight into minds (virtually a mind-reader.) She has an unsurpassed (albeit ring-aided) ability to allow things, from small to vast, to flourish and yet remain unspoiled. She has a keen ability to influence and motivate.

Anyway she has no need to fight; she always had a legion or more of highly trained, utterly loyal, immortal elf-warriors who would gladly give up their lives for her. That’s power.

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@Knorf

Anyway [Galadriel] has no need to fight; she always had a legion or more of highly trained, utterly loyal elf-warriors who would gladly give up their lives for her. That’s power.

And one Dwarf that we know of.

[Knorf]

@Skald_the_Rhymer

And one Dwarf that we know of.

Indeed! Talk about power …

[Chronos]

Galadriel is undoubtedly powerful, but there is no evidence in the texts that any of her power is vested in the form of warfare. J.R.R.T. had very few female characters who were warriors in his books.

Eowyn and Haleth, off the top of my head. Of course, Tolkien didn’t have all that many female characters, period.

[Qadgop_the_Mercotan]

@Astral_Rejection

What makes them so powerful in the first place, then? What is imbuing Finrod’s words with strength? And how would his song affect Sauron?

My conjecture (after reading Sil, UT, and HOMES obsessively) is that the mightiest of the Eldar have some of the same creative power that the Ainur displayed in Ainulindalë. They were able to “sing songs” which altered the reality around them.

I expect this power grew from spending ages at the feet of the Powers of Arda (Valar, etc) and learning directly from them.

My conjecture is not explicitly supported by anything JRRT wrote, but a number of actual Tolkien scholars have put forth the same idea (which I may have read and stole from them,) citing a number of his writings as implicitly supporting the idea.

[smiling_bandit]

[quote=“Alka_Seltzer, post:80, topic:550243”]

There is no reason cutting the ring off Sauron’s finger would have caused his body to disintegrate.

• The Tale of Years says “Sauron overthrown by Elendil and Gil-Galad, who perish. Isildur takes the One Ring”.

While doomed last stands and such are definitely known in LotR, I really doubt that even the two fo them together could have killed (more or less) Sauron, much less kill him and die immediately simultaneously.

• In Tolkein’s world, those who fight Maiar don’t survive the experience. Feanor vs Gothmog, Ecthelion vs Gothmog, Glorfindel vs un-named Balrog, Gandalf vs Durin’s Bane, they all die.

Not necessarily. The good guys would have had a lots-to-one advantage, which has proven successful against evil.

• Narsil was broke under Elendil as he fell (symbolically), it wasn’t broken by Sauron.

Uh… does not follow.

• Isildur cut the ring from Saurons finger using the hilt shard or Narsil (again, symbolism). If Sauron was still on his feet at this point, why was Isildur attacking him with a broken sword?

Quite probably because no lesser blade would do it. And Isildur wouldn’t cut off his hand or finger with a broken sword - unless he had no other choice. Certainly no common blade could hurt Sauron, and Isildur had no other named sword. If Sauron was broken alreayd, he’d have just taken the Ring off.

• Sauron has 9 fingers (Gollum tells us this). It’s hard to see how Isildur could have cut off just his ring finger in combat.

Not the same body, though. Sauron can’t regenerate that finger solely because that one held the Ring.

[The_Second_Stone]

[quote=“Alka_Seltzer, post:80, topic:550243”]

@smiling_bandit

• In Tolkein’s world, those who fight Maiar don’t survive the experience. Feanor vs Gothmog, …

It wasn’t just Gothmog that killed Feanor, he was surrounded and beaten by seven balrogs until he was killed.

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@Knorf

@Skald_the_Rhymer

And one Dwarf that we know of.

Indeed! Talk about power …

Admittedly, Dwarves may have low standards. They’d probably think Star Reynolds was hot too.

[AClockworkMelon]

I just want to say that I’ve only read Fellowship but I always follow these LOTR threads (not sure why) and they’re making me want to get into it.

[Chronos]

My conjecture (after reading Sil, UT, and HOMES obsessively) is that the mightiest of the Eldar have some of the same creative power that the Ainur displayed in Ainulindalë. They were able to “sing songs” which altered the reality around them.

That, and they’re more closely associated with the Music than humans are. The fact that they’re ultimately bound to the Music and we aren’t might also mean that, to some extent, the Music is also bound to them.

[rowrrbazzle]

I don’t see the Ring being self-destructive. After all, it got back to Mount Doom, where the person carrying it would inevitably put it on and that person would in short order be subdued by Sauron. It did not “suspect” that, due to Bilbo, Sam, and Frodo sparing Gollum’s life, Gollum’s desire would bring about its own destruction. Hell, NOBODY suspected THAT.

@Oy

That’s why I find it internally contradictory. Merit does and doesn’t count. Free will is, and yet it isn’t. And so on.

Just like real life?

@Chronos

As for the claim that Tolkien despised allegory, he may have said that, but just read “Leaf by Niggle” some time and try to say with a straight face that that’s not allegory. I don’t know if Tolkien was deluding himself or if the “hating allegory” thing was supposed to be sarcasm, but either way, it’s definitely not actually true.

It’s not allegory–for Tolkien’s definition of allegory. Tolkien would say (see 2nd quote below) you have confused applicability with allegory.

Letter 199:

Leaf by Niggle arose suddenly and almost complete. It was written down almost at a sitting, and very nearly in the form in which it now appears.

That doesn’t fit Tolkien’s own views on allegory. I can’t find a source for him “hating” or “despising” allegory; perhaps someone else can dig one up. I have found the following references (among many).

LOTR, foreword to the 2nd edition:

As for any inner meaning or ‘message,’ it has in the intention of the author none. It is neither allegorical nor topical…I cordially dislike allegory, and have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence…I think that many confuse ‘applicability’ with ‘allegory’; but one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.

Letter 131 (emphasis added):

I dislike Allegory – **the conscious and intentional allegory **– yet any attempt to explain the purport of myth or fairytale must use allegorical language. (And, of course, the more ‘life’ a story has the more readily will it be susceptible of allegorical interpretations: while the better a deliberate allegory is made the more nearly will it be acceptable just as a story.) Anyway all this stuff is mainly concerned with Fall, Mortality, and the Machine…

He [Man] will rebel against the laws of the Creator – especially against mortality. Both of these (alone or together) will lead to the desire for Power, for making the will more quickly effective, – and so to the Machine (or Magic).

Letter 181 (emphasis added):

There is no ‘allegory’, moral, political, or contemporary in the work [LOTR] at all. It is a ‘fairy-story’, but one written – according to the belief I once expressed in an extended essay ‘On Fairy-stories’ that they are the proper audience – for adults. Because I think that fairy story has its own mode of reflecting ‘truth’, different from allegory, or (sustained) satire, or ‘realism’, and in some ways more powerful.

But, of course, if one sets out to address ‘adults’ (mentally adult people anyway), they will not be pleased, excited, or moved unless the whole, or the incidents, seem to be about something worth considering, more e.g. than mere danger and escape: there must be some relevance to the ‘human situation’ (of all periods). So something of the teller’s own reflections and ‘values’ will inevitably get worked in. **This is not the same as allegory. **We all, in groups or as individuals, exemplify general principles; but we do not represent them. The Hobbits are no more an ‘allegory’ than are (say) the pygmies of the African forest.

@Oy

I find it internally contradictory, and I find it the opposite of inspiring. But then, that’s the way I view religion in general and Christianity in particular, so it’s hardly surprising that I would resist this idea. Nonetheless, I suspect it is as close to Tolkien’s actual thought as we may get, which makes me want to know less about Tolkien’s thought than I would otherwise. That makes me sad.

Letter 246 has entered these discussions before. Don’t read it. It will make you even sadder. http://www.americanidea.org/handouts/06240110.htm

@smiling_bandit

@Oy

I suspect Tolkien had to go through some pretty significant mental gymnastics, because he wrote tales that fit rather perfectly within the structures of classic tragedy/heroic tale, and then had to shoehorn in his religious beliefs.

I think you are again shoving you own self into it.

Exactly. Oy! is going through mental gymnastics. This “fairy story”, for him, because of its Christian influence, is not effective enough in suspending disbelief. That’s as valid a point of view as those who like it for that reason.

[Chronos]

Note that I didn’t claim that Lord of the Rings is allegory, but that “Leaf by Niggle” is. It’s made especially amusing by J. R. R.'s claim that it’s a fairy story, when it has exactly none of the traits of a fairy story as he’s just finished defining the term.