LOTR - Fellowship: Why didn't Gendalf just use magic when fighting?

Plus Sauron had SAM emplacements and antiaircraft guns throughout Mordor.

I think that’s in an appendix somewhere.

:smiley:

Fighting…urge…

Must…not…succumb…

Whywhatdoyoumean,africanoreuropean?

Aaargh! The power was too great!

bernse: Sorry man, I wasn’t trying to insult you. I was just to make a point that the Wizards in Tolkien’s world are not the archtype Wizards of other fantasy worlds, most notably Harry Potter land. :wink: As a matter of fact, Tolkien hated the term Wizard for Maians sent to Middle Earth.

Anyway, here is a great link that describes Middle-Earth Magic: http://members.cts.com/king/e/erikt/tolkien/magictxt.htm .

As to the Eagle question, this has been debated many times throughout the years. The obvious answer, that it wouldn’t be much of a story then, doesn’t serve here. Otherwise, there are several possible responses.

*1. The eagles were not under Gandalf’s control. In the Hobbit, they were attracted to the fir wood by the fire and commotion, and the Battle of Five Armies by the din and hue of war. Gandalf is rescued from Orthanc by an eagle who journeyed there at Radagast’s request and later from the top of Zirak-zigil perhaps at Manwe’s request.

  1. Assuming that Gandalf did not know of the airborne Nazgul, Sauron did nonetheless have spies in the air in the form of crows, etc. The Ringwraiths were abroad and were capable of sensing the Ring. A flight of eagles bearing Frodo and the Ring would eventually be detected before reaching Mordor. The eagles could not fly the whole way at once so there was danger of assault during a rest stop and again when the eagles reached Mordor.

  2. Gandalf knew of the Nazgul, or suspected that Mordor was otherwise protected from intrusion via the air. A flight of eagles would have been very open and obvious as it approached Mordor.

  3. The eagles could not carry such a burden over such a distance or they would not do so. Also, the eagles were only nominal allies; the Hobbit notes that some are not trustworthy.

  4. Even if the Eagles could have flown Frodo to the entryway of Orodruin, the quest still would have failed. Frodo, unprepared and untempered by his journey, would certainly have claimed the Ring rather than casting it into the fire, and without Gollum along, there is no doubt as to the eventual outcome of that scenario. JRRT hints in Letters that if Gollum had not caused the Ring’s destruction in the way that he did, Frodo might have had a moment of clarity after claiming the Ring where he could have thrown himself (and it) into fire for a suicidal victory, but I’d venture to say that an untested Frodo would not have been able to accomplish that. The journey was necessary, and Gandalf’s foresight that Gollum would play a pivotal role at the end turned out to be true.*

From a literary standpoint, one of the major themes of the book is the responsibility inherent in having power. Power must be used judiciously lest it corrupt the user.

The ring is the ultimate example, as it represents near absolute power and near absolute corruption. But in situations such as Gandalf constraining himself, the book makes it clear that wanton or reckless use of any power leads in that direction.

A few other notes:

  1. The “wizard duel” was an invention of Peter Jackson–it’s not in the book. So we can’t take that as a basis for what kinds of “magic” Gandalf is or isn’t capable of. (But Gandalf does cast a spell of closing on a door in Moria, which was countered on the other side of the door by the Balrog. That’s about it for blatant magic for Gandalf the Grey. Gandalf the White is a little more open about his enhanced powers.)

  2. Your average orc, such as those in Moria, isn’t very big–the biggest bad-ass orc in the book is described as “nearly man-sized”. The uruk-hai were another deal, considerably larger.

Yeah, but I also read that he uses Scud missiles and Iraqi targeting computers… so an eagle might still get through. :wink:

Well Gandalf the Grey used more magic that just that:

1)Minor Shape shifting in Bag End.

2)Lightning Attack on Weathertop.

3)Caused an un-natural flood, andmade Horse shapes out of rushing water.

4)Lit his staff in Moria.

5)Broke the bridge of Khazad-dum.

6)Caused the trees to burst into flame against the wolves.

7)There are a couple more examples which I can’t think of right now. :wink:

But yes, you are right, Gandalf the White was much stronger, and used more “magic” than Gandalf the Grey. :wink:

Well, not all the hobbits were just everyday joes. Pippen is the Took heir and has hobbit heroes in his lineage and is a prince of sorts among hobbits, in that is family was appointed as some kind of leaders by the king. It is not something hobbits take too seriously but there it is.

Tiniest of nit-picks, FingolfinElrond caused the flood; Gandalf just added the horses (whoop-di-doo). Your other examples are all valid, and all pretty subtle. Note that #1 could’ve been in the “mind of the beholder” more than obvious magic; #2 occurred off-stage, so to speak; #5 could’ve just been faulty construction on the part of the Dwarves. :slight_smile:

And #2, #4 and #6 involve fire, FWIW.

Bottom line, folks, is that Gandalf as conceived by Tolkien is not a completely free agent. As a Maia (Angel j.g.) with a quasi-human body, he is one of the handful of agents sent in by Manwe, who is Eru’s chosen administrator for the operation of Ea, to do a particular task in a particular way. He may licitly use his powers only in ways that benefit the successful outcome of that task and only in ways that enhance that particular way. (Naturally, of course, he is free to “sin” – to turn against the role he has agreed to play and become a power-seeker himself, just as Saruman, his colleague in that task, in fact does.)

Why he uses magic at particular times and not at others is intimately bound into Tolkien’s understanding of the working out of God’s purpose for the world – which, as you will note, turns on the deeds of those deemed small and insignificant, not the high and mighty. There’s a very profound lesson in that.

Just picking a post at random, but can we get some spoilers? I’m sure I’m not the only one here who hasn’t read the books.

I remember Saruman saying something about the origins of the orcs in the movie, but I didn’t realize he gave the credit to Sauron. Did he really say S by name, or did he just say the “dark lord”, which would also cover Morgoth?

No, no, it was Arwen–I know 'cause I saw it in the movie.

:smiley:

No sweat. It was just to early in the day for me and read something in your post that wasn’t even really there.

:slight_smile:

I’ll assume you know of Frodo’s quest to deliver the ring. I’ll tell you what happens at the end of the 3rd book, so beware.

Frodo and Sam arrive at the Cracks with Gollum on their tail as the combined forces of Good match of against some rather strong Evil forces. Frodo is finally overcome by the draw of the Ring, and cannot bring himself to throw it in. Gollum ambushes him after he puts it on, and bites off his finger (the one with the Ring on it). The severed member falls into the cracks, with Gollum clinging all the while.

Oh yeah, that’s the situation they want to depend on:

Elrond: So, where’s the ring right now?

Gandalf: Oh, I took a few hobbits and tossed them on some eagles. They’ll be at Mordor in a few hours. In and out in five minutes, tops.

Elrond: You are aware of the new Urak-Guided critter arbalests, are you not?

Gandalf: Sure, but they aren’t that accurate. The Nazgal intelligence says they really aren’t that good against avian targets.

Elrond: Well perhaps you heard about how they shot down a…

Gandalf (holding hat to ear?) Wait a sec! What? BLACK EAGLE DOWN! BLACK EAGLE DOWN! Hobbits are scattered everywhere!

Elrond: Are you telling me you just dropped the ring ‘somewhere’ in Mordor?

Gandalf was a member of the Istari order of wizards, who were not allowed to “reveal” their full powers or directly oppose Sauron, but rather to rally the peoples of middle earth to do just that. Cirdan, Elrond and Galadriel knew who and what the Istari were, but didn’t go around blabbing it. Aragorn probably did not know.

The eagles were the personal servants of Manwe, and were a very deliberate god from the machine. But for the same reasons that the Istari did not directly oppose Sauron, Manwe would not send the eagles to directly oppose Sauron: this was the job of the peoples of middle earth. The eagles were used as rescue operations only except for the War of Wrath at the end of the first age, under the direct command of Manwe to oppose the flying dragons.

You will recall that Gandalf used his magic very sparingly in front of mortals. The application at the bridge of Khazad dum was indirect, he broke the bridge, he did not smite the balrog. But there is every indication that after he fell he did in fact smite the balrog with his magic, and vice versa. Also, on Weathertop, a few days before the hobbits got there, Gandalf confronted all nine Nazgul, and the hobbits and Aragorn saw it as a fierce lightening storm from afar.

**

Actually, it seems like G intended to take on the Witch King but was saved the bother by the arrival of Rohan. They had a verbal confrontation which made it pretty clear they were going to rumble. All in all, it seems like G could and would pull out the stops when directly threatened.

**

Not really, the eagles of middle earth were, oddly enough, related to Ents and were not the same as the Eagles of Manwe.

I was unaware of the eagle difference Truth Seeker, thanks for the heads up.

I too got the impression that the Witch King and Gandalf were about to both throw down. The Witch King was probably not aware of what Gandalf was, and was only used to the old and restrained Gandalf. “What’s that spot between the City Gates? That, my boy, is all that is left of the fell cheiftan of the Nazgul.”

Yeah, I just reached that part in my re-reading of RotK, Truth Seeker and they definitely were about to get it on but Gandalf suddenly had a lot of things to deal with (and the Witch King too, I suppose). The Witch King definitely had to be aware of what Gandalf was, Gandalf had been running around for the past three days shooting beams of light out of his hands and pimp slapping the other Nazgul. At that point he was less than subtle and I think it’s hinted that he picked up on Aragorn’s lead of shooting up flares to draw Sauron’s attention since he didn’t start throwing magic around until he realized that Sauron was being forced to move early.