For what it’s worth, here’s a side-by-side comparison of the original first-edition version of Bilbo and Gollum’s riddle game, versus the revised version.
Yikes, elf-wraiths and invisible goblins!
I will assume (and likely read in the books) that the wearers of the three elven rings did remove theirs when Sauron created and enchanted The One. (or knew not to wear them depending on when Gil-Gilad gave Narya to Círdan and Vilya to Elrond)
And perhaps seizing The Ring by force being an evil act would have corrupted Círdan or Elrond. Yet they were rather incurious about what happened to it after Isildur was killed.
It would take 1000 years till the Witch King of Angmar corrupted and destroyed Arnor and a few hundred more years till he took Minas Ithil and made it Minas Morgul before dueling and killing King Eärnur. Somewhere around that time the Istari started coming.
I reckon Gandalf’s side-quest in The Hobbit to find out who the Necromancer is was answered pretty quickly when Sauron fled back to a completely and secretly rebuilt Barad-dur. As the wearers of the Three would likely know if he’s got the Ring back some kind of search for it should - by someone other than Sauron and whatever wraiths he had in his call - have happened, though I think the theory (probably Elrond’s) was that it was washed down the Anduin to the Sea.
Sauron’s likely fear was that someone who already had power would wield it against him. What would Galadriel, Gandalf or the Balrog nobody expected got it? Even Saruman’s fighting Uruk-hai were a puny army compared to Sauron’s and Saruman would practically be doing Sauron a favour by finding it for him and relinquishing it after Sauron’s army crushed Gondor, then Rohan then Isengard.
Gandalf specifically warned that they were dangerous for mortals (Men, Hobbits, and Dwarves I assume, maybe he also meant such as Orcs though I don’t see him worrying about them much). They should be wary of magic rings. He said that “they were but trifles” to the Elves that made them. Elves and Istari (Maiar) are not mortal so that’s why Gandalf, Elrond, Cirdan, and such weren’t in danger from the Rings.
The One Ring though, that’s radioactive to anyone due to Sauron’s essence. Hence even Gandalf and Galadriel don’t want to touch it. And I got the impression that the inverse rule was in place for the One Ring; it was most dangerous to the more powerful, and those humble few who were able to bear it for a long time like Bilbo, Frodo, and Sméagol were only affected slowly. Isildur only had it for a couple of years before it was lost and he was killed.
It’s interesting to read this discussion in an age when D&D is resurfacing as popular again, largely due to the wide YouTube distribution of actors role-playing during the pandemic lockdowns and the proliferation of technology that has made it possible to play on-line via Zoom and Discord gatherings.
I started playing D&D in the mid-1970’s when the rules of Eldritch Wizardry and Basic D&D were still pretty new. It was no secret that those fantasy role-playing games were heavily based on the Hobbit/LOTR cosmology and I found it striking that dungeon treasures often included magical [jewelry/accessory] of _________ but failed to include a ‘price of magic’ as one famous author (Jeremy Pournell, perhaps?) termed it. And magical invisibility was one of the relatively common items in any monster’s loot.
Later, when we graduated to the First Edition Advanced D&D rule sets, it was interesting to see the lists of magical artifacts in the DM’s guide, but that still seemed too tame.
–G!
Forget that stupid claw.
We’re looking for the Rest of Veccna!
Yeah, to the typical gamer, “legendarily great sword” means “one that does lots and lots of damage”. But in the original legends, the swords that did lots and lots of damage were mostly the cursed ones. The really good swords were generally set apart by the damage that they didn’t do. Masamune is said to have made a sword that, when placed edge-on in a river, parted the currents so no innocent leaf would touch the blade. Excalibur, in some version of the legends, would shatter if ever wielded unjustly. And of course, the scabbard of Excalibur was regarded as even greater than the sword, since it prevented bleeding.
Flip side though - generalized magic D&D/AD&D swords very much reflect the attitude towards “semi-common” elvish weapons in LoTR. Strong, nigh-unbreakable (depending on the rules sets), and very commonly glowing with light.
The more “legendary swords” with special abilities, intellect, etc, INCLUDING ego battles, are much more reminiscent of legendary weapons of myth, capable of compelling their ‘owners’, and bestowing a bit more than the + hit/damage of the default. And of course we’re not talking about relics which are a different class altogether.
Personally I think a lot of the homogenization of magic items boiled down to an incompletely developed nod to game balance. And as the game grew in future editions, they became even more so IMHO.
Still, thinking back on my paper and pencil games, no one remembers their generic longsword +1, but most remember their first intelligent weapon, or relic, or other more unique treasure. Not always FONDLY mind you, I remember a specific DM who always made it a point to put out the most power/interesting magic weapons of types appropriate for the area/race/campaign but NOT what the players were used to using/wanting.
Defeat a mummy? Perhaps it has a khopesh +2 that could summon a scarab mount once a day or a scarab warrior once per week. Defeat the sahuagin bandit king, and get a harpoon + 2 that could use monster summoning 3 once per week (limited to aquatic monsters only). And so forth.
So back to the OP - LoTR had both ‘generic’ magic items (although they aren’t exactly labeled as such), as well as objects of true power. And so did D&D.
Now don’t get me started on my rant about why it makes perfect sense for Gandalf to be an amazing badass with a sword in the movie version!
[ using 3.0/3.5 edition rules that we were playing with at the time, an 15th level wizard has more than enough base attack power via level alone to attack twice per round as 7/2, equivalent to a 7th level fighter discounting of course stats and feats ]
There was one video game where you could find powerful items that were cursed. You could then go to a church and have the curse removed. In another game the armor was really powerful but permeantly
cursed. Kind of different but pointless and kind of annoying.
Of course there are plenty of games that have weapons and armor that increase one attribute and decrease another.
In fact, Gandalf had one. Narya. The Ring of Fire (not flame but to inspire others).
Galadriel had Nenya and Elrond had Vilya.
In the former case you could lose your life, but in the latter you could lose your soul.
What was she doing during the time of the Hobbit? Nenya business.
Nicely correct and concise!
IIRC, Gil-Galad originally was given both Vilya and Narya. He turned Narya over to Cirdan very soon after he got it, and turned Vilya over to Elrond before assailing Sauron with Elendil. Cirdan turned Narya over to Gandalf (after possessing it for over 2700 years) in year 1000 of the 3rd age.
I think there’s a real inconsistency in the book about this, which has always bothered me. Gandalf does talk about “lesser” rings, but he also says, talking about his feelings at the time Bilbo got the Ring from Gollum, “I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was – that at least was clear from the first” (emphasis added). So he never thought that Bilbo’s ring was one of the lesser rings; he always knew it was one of the 20 Great Rings. But in the same conversation he gives an account of those rings: “The Three, fairest of all, the Elf-lords hid from him… Seven the Dwarf-kings possessed, but three he has recovered, and the others the dragons have consumed. … The Nine he has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed.”
So how could Gandalf have not come to the conclusion that Bilbo’s was the One Ring years ago? Which Ring did he think it was, if the Three were hidden, and the Seven and the Nine were either in Sauron’s possession or destroyed?
For the Elven rings does Gandalf mean they are hidden from Sauron?
As mentioned, Gandalf has one of them so clearly he knows where that is. The other two are with Galadriel and Elrond and I think Gandalf would know that too.
Yes, he means they are hidden from Sauron. Gandalf obviously knows that he himself has one, and knows that Elves have the other two. But the point is that he knows that Bilbo’s ring can’t be any of those three (nor any of the 12 that Sauron has, nor any of the four that dragons have destroyed).
A side-note: I’d always wondered how the dragons consumed them. Did they just eat the wearer?
Melted them with their breath, was how I read it. The other meaning of “consume”
Ah, ok. I’d always taken it that the other Great Rings were nearly as tough as the One. So in theory Smaug could have melted Gandalf’s Ring?
I think it’s inconsistent because when the Hobbit was written, Bilbo’s ring wasn’t meant to be a great ring of power, and when Tolkien later wrote the Lord of the Rings he edited that back in imperfectly.
My copy of the Hobbit was neither the original nor the final version, and had some little inconsistency about whether Bilbo won the ring or stole it that drove me nuts as a kid.
Didn’t the Elves remove their rings as soon as the One Ring was made because they understood the peril?
Could they safely use their rings once the One Ring had no owner?
@Whack-a-Mole Yes, and yes.
Once Sauron put on the One Ring, they removed theirs. I don’t recall any notes by JRRT about when they put them on again; maybe right after Sauron’s defeat, maybe after Isildur lost the ring in the river.