Spoilers, spoilers galore. Herein you will find all sorts of spoilers for the books, the movies, fan fiction, rumors, and conjecture.
Now that we’ve got that out of the way, there’s a rumor going around that in The Two Towers (the movie), Saruman is going to bite it by falling onto a spiky wheel from atop Orthanc. While this would indeed suck, and it would most probably guarantee the lack of the Scouring of the Shire in ROTK, it brings up a question:
Would this kill Saruman? I mean, he’s Valar. Gandalf can fall down into the icy abyss of Moria, all the while wrestling with what is basically lava, and appear at the top of Caradras naked and unscathed. But Saruman gets stabbed by Wormtongue/impales himself on a bit of spike, and he’s done? What’s up with that?
I’ve heard the rumor of Saruman’s death, but I can’t confirm it. It has been confirmed, however, by Peter Jackson, that there will be no scouring of the Shire in the movies. With that being the case, it makes sense to kill off Saruman in TTT, when his story is over.
On a tangentially related subject: anybody else think Christopher Lee was a bad choice for the role?
I say this because Saruman, while evil, should be a throughly CHARMING character. He should have a sweet, seductive way with words. He should be someone who can propose murder, deceit and betrayal with a warm smile, and make it sound eminently reasonable. He should be eerily LIKEABLE.
Christopher Lee has been very effectively as a villain over his career, but he’s a one-dimentional villain. The moment Lee appears on screen, it’s OBVIOUS he’s evil, and that he could NEVER seduce or entice anyone with words or charm.
I agree, astorian. I wonder how the parlay at the steps of Orthanc will play? In the books he is seductive, as you say. Hard to picture Lee being that charismatic.
I’ve not heard definitively one way or the other, but I find it hard to imagine that Jackson and Co. would change the story so far as to kill off a major character that early. Then again, Saruman played a much more significant role in the first film than he did in the first book… so it’s possible, but doubtful.
I have seen the photos of the spiky wheel with someone impaled on it, and I remain somewhat unconvinced about what it represents. It could be anyone/thing impaled on it; it could even be a background prop.
astorian, I also agree that Lee playing Saruman gives him a much different aspect than what we see in the books, especially as we saw him in Fellowship. I won’t say Lee is a bad choice, because the filmmakers may have chosen him because he makes such a great (and obvious) villain. I will say, however, that Lee as Saruman gives the character a very different reading than what I got from the book.
I’m looking forward to seeing Gandalf break Saruman’s staff, though… especially after the ass-kicking he took in the first movie. I’m also wondering how they’re going to deal with the fact the Gandalf has already seen the palantir in the film. In the book, he didn’t know about it until Grima threw it at him.
Christopher Lee is not a stupid or insincere man (as evidenced from his commentaries on “The Lord of the Rings – 4 DVD set” and “Star War II”) but he mistakes being an identifiable, bankable screen personality with being talented. He’s not even a second rate actor.
It’s distressing, and in a way part of the reason I decided not to continue with college filmmaking, lo, those many years ago, that so many people have an opportunity to make profound contributions to a single work. That means many small decisions can go wrong.
Case in point, “The Lord of the Rings”. The director took exceptional pains to ensure the hobbits were cast correctly, and had time to bond with one another. I feel this paid off. Excellent decision.
Equally the director, when he was uninspired, or reliving a childhood fantasy, made mistakes. Bringing in his childhood idol, Christopher Lee (as he describes it) – wasn’t an artistic decision, but living a childhood fantasy. Unfortunately, this was a decision that wasn’t quite bad enough to provolk a reaction from those advising him. Result? A weak and one-dimensional Saruman.
I liked Christopher Lee’s Saruman. Love that voice, think it fits the description of “melodic” and mesmerizing, which was his chief power, I thought. The rumor I hear is that Saruman does not die in a spiked wheel incident and the Scouring is definitely out. Early reviews of TTT say nothing about Saruman’s death - even the ones with spoilers.
In the books, he dies when Wormtongue cuts his throat, so I suppose a spiked wheel thingy would kill him. Gandalf did not actually survive the Balrog. He is “sent back” from death, or whatever, to complete his mission.
Saruman in the late Third Age is a one dimensional character, bereft of hope, and he turns to evil. The Saruman that Gandalf knew thousands of years earlier was much wiser, but Gandalf missed the change because of the familiar face. I’ve never found Saruman in the books all that interesting a character, so I am not bothered by the choice of Christopher Lee.
As a preliminary point I should note that Saruman is of the Maiar, not the Valar.
From Tolkien’s Unfinished Tales about the Istari:
As such, the Istari in their physical form can be killed, although there is a question of what happens to their spirit, as the sundering of Sauron’s physical form from his ring killed his body but not his spirit (which maintained a connection with the land so long as his ring still existed), and even the defeated and banished Morgoth exists somewhere outside of the world. Gandalf the Grey was restored as Gandalf the White because he was faithful in his duties as Istar. Given Saruman’s actions, I doubt the higher ups would grant him a do-over.
I guess the “errors of old” part has to do with how the Noldor, poisoned by the lies of Morgoth, suspected that the Valar were trying to control them, and that the Valar, Ainur like Morgoth, were not necessarily to be trusted. As such, the Valar decided to send in some guys undercover so that they would not be met with distrust by the Elves and Men of Middle Earth. After all, Sauron was of the Maiar, and a similar distrust of the Istari could have occurred if they showed up in their more powerful forms.
I think that the simple answer is “Ainur can be killed”. The various balrogs die. Saruman dies. Various minor Ainur in the Silmarillion and the Lost Tales die. Even Morgoth, it is fortold, will actually be killed (not just banished) in the Great Battle at the end of time.
Of course, in some cases, it’s easier to kill them than others.
I think it’s almost certain the Saurman is going to meet his fate in The Two Towers. Without anything to come back to they might as well give the audience a final blow to the villain of that movie. It works, structurally, better for a movie though I’m certain the cries from fandom will be long and loud.
I’ve been soooo looking forward to seeing the scouring of the Shire on film, too! I guess it’s too “anticlimactic” to have this gigantic battle and everyone lives happily ever after, only to return home and have lots of hobbits running around with pitchforks. But dammit, I still like it.
Ah well, it could never live up to my imagination. I’ll take consolation in that. I suppose it would also be difficult to find a good stopping point. They certainly couldn’t go all the way to the end, with everyone dying and going to the Grey Havens and Sam returning to Bag End without Frodo and saying “Well, that’s that!” or whatever the heck the last sentence is.
There was an interview with David Wenham in the SMH this past weekend and he says that Faramir is a darker character in the movie than in the books. But I don’t know specifics.
In the movie, Faramir supposedly takes Frodo & Sam captive and brings them to Osgiliath, where he tries to take the ring from Frodo so he can bring it to his father in Minas Tirith. Sounds like a repeat of Boromir to me.
As to whether being stabbed and falling on a spike could kill a Valar, I got the impression that Saruman lost a good deal, if not all, of his power when Gandalf broke his staff.
The Scouring of the Shire is definitely out of the films; Jackson said as much in a recent interview. It’s just as well as far as I’m concerned- I never really liked that chapter. I just felt it was sort of an add-on that Tolkien stuck there because he wanted to write more about the Shire and the Hobbits. It never really felt like part of the larger story to me.
Saruman will probably end up getting killed in TTT- he has no more business in Middle-Earth, really. Gandalf breaks his staff, kicks him out of the order, and gets the palantir. The movies can’t linger on any one episode too long, so in a movie context, killing off Saruman makes sense. The audience is supposed to hate him; we’re supposed to want to see him get his just desserts. I think the movie will deliver here.
I agree with what many have said about Christopher Lee- he is definitely not book-Saruman. But as movie-Saruman, I think he makes sense. There just isn’t time on screen to go into all the sublety of the books, so making Saruman evil from the get-go is a big time-saver and just easier all around. I’ve always sort of liked Christopher Lee, so I was happy to see him in the first film. I love his voice.
Now for the other question: how did Saruman die so easily in the book? Well, he didn’t really die, per se. His body was killed by Grima Wormtongue, but his spirit is seen rising from his corpse. It looks briefly West and then a cold wind comes and blows it away. I always took this to mean that his Maiar spirit was looking to head home to Aman, but the Valar said no way and sent the cold wind to blow him off to…somewhere else. Where, I have no idea. He may be a discarnate and weak spirit floating around Middle-earth like Sauron was for a time after the Last Alliance. As far as I can remember, Maiar and Valar are eternal insofar as their spirits cannot be destroyed so long as the world endures. Elves are the same way- if they get killed their spirits go to the Halls of Mandos to wait for a new body to be made for them. It’s the same with Gandalf, who is a Maiar- his body dies in the abyss in Moria, and he goes back to Aman, where the Valar outfit him with a new body and send him back to Arda to finish the job. Tolkien talks about this in The Silmarillion when Melian the Maia “dies” after her husband Thingol gets killed. Her spirit abandons her body and she goes home to Valinor.
Just in the last few days various reports have been coming in from preview screenings of The Two Towers, and I’ve been sucking them up, because there’s nothing better than the sweet taste of spoilers. From what I gather, Saruman doesn’t die in this film, BUT the film doesn’t go past the point where he would die, if he were to (if that makes sense). In other words, that thread of the film ends just after the Ents flood Isengard (which is reportedly an incredible scene), with Saruman peering ruefully out of his tower.
So it could very well be that his death (probably upon a spiky wheel, as this scene is known to have been filmed) will take place in The Return of the King, next December. What with that, Shelob, a couple somewhat important battles, and the whole Ultimate Destruction of the One Ring and Downfall of Sauron, it should be one heck of a movie.