We were rewatching the Trilogy over at Chez Kobal, gently poking fun at the whole thing and making silly D&D comparisons (as you do) when my SO raised a valid point : where does the tentacle beast “guarding” the secret entrance to Moria come from ? What is it when it’s at home, and what does it eat when there are no hobbits on ponies around ?
If I recall the books correctly the orcs dammed the river which created an artificial lake there, to prevent the dwarves from coming back in force. Fine. But orcs don’t have tentacle monsters so that doesn’t answer the question. For that matter and from a more meta- standpoint, what is the narrative purpose of having a random encounter there ? Is it simply a case of, as she put it, “Suddenly, hentai !” ?
I know the SDMB has its fair share of Tolkien erudites. Knowledge me, people !
The tentacled monster goes after Frodo more than the others, further highlighting the danger that he’s in as a ring-bearer. In the novels, at least, this is pretty explicitly stated. I can’t remember whether it’s brought up in the movies.
For purposes of pacing, it’s good to have a little action there, since it’s bookmarked by travel on either side.
And, of course, it explains why the characters are now committed to going through Moria. They can’t turn back because the entrance is now blocked.
Other than that, it fits the usual themes in Tolkien-land, where evil things attract other evil things. So if there’s a balrog inside, there’s probably something nasty just outside.
Tolkien’s world is a very rich one, with much that remains unexplained (just like the real world). That is a large part of the fascination of the books, and something that Jackson’s movies, excellent as they were, can scarcely capture. There are all sorts of evil beings in Middle Earth that are never really “explained” and do not owe any particular allegiance to Sauron or Saruman, or even necessarily Morgoth. The watcher in the lake is just one example, Old Man Willow is another, and probably Shelob. The balrog, too, is scarcely explained in the LOTR trilogy. Neither, really, are the barrow wights. Likewise there are good or goodish beings that care little or nothing about the War of the Ring, and do not really “fit in” on the side of the Elves and Gandalf, or even the Valar. Tom Bombardil is the prime example; Beorn might be another, or the Drúedain, or even the Ents.
It is not a coincidence, of course, that a lot of the things I have just named are entirely left out of Jackson’s LOTR trilogy. He could easily have left out the Watcher in the Water too, but I suppose it was little trouble to leave it in. It does not really do anything, or even “appear” more than minimally.
Some (not all) of these beings, and their place in Tolkein’s universe, are explained in The Silmarillion and others of his writings. In some ways, however, I feel the explanations rather diminish the emotional richness of the world of LOTR itself. I rather wish I did not know about the Valar and Morgoth and Illuvetar behind it all, or what a wizard or a balrog really is.
There’s also the “nameless things”. Gandalf: “Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things.”
Shelob’s a kind of interesting example of that. She’s explained as being last of the line of Ungoliant…but where did Ungoliant come from? No one knows.
^
And Legolas was centerfold material? OT, remember that Sauron peopled Moria with his creatures after the Balrog appeared, what Gandalf said that there are creatures scarce seen that are even older than Sauron, if that’s possible.
Unlikely creatures like Ungoliant, Thorondor, Huan and the dragons were either created in the theme, or Ainur themselves, or expressed creations by the Valar (who were quite capable of creating sentient beings like the dwarves.)
She was stuck in spider form. That means she fell faster than even Morgoth did. He was able to change form until the stealing of the Silmarils and the slaying of Finwë.
In the Book of Lost Tales, there’s some talk of beings called “fey”, distinct from any of the categories of creatures described in the Silmarillion. They’re described as being part of the created World, with no existence predating it, and which embody aspects of the World. Goldberry is presumably one such (embodying the river), as is the sentience associated with Caradhas, if there is one, which is presumed to have sent the storm. I think that Ungoliant probably fits best in this category, as an embodiment of the primordial darkness of the World.
In the movie, Saruman is seen exhorting (in Elvish, I guess) Caradhras to bring down his wrath on the fellowship. In the books it’s much more ambiguous - words are said that Caradhras is bad mojo, the party then gets stuck in a storm trying to traverse that peak, but no connection to Saruman is made.
In the books, it is extremely ambiguous. Boromir wonders if it is "a contrivance of the enemy … [who] can govern the storms in the Mountains of Shadow … " Aragorn says there are many evil things in the world that “are not in league with Sauron but have purposes of their own.” Gimli blames the mountain itself. Gandalf says, “It matters little who is the enemy, if we cannot beat off his attack.”
Right, that’s a good point. A dramatic burning of the bridges makes narrative sense. Thinking back on it, it also serves as a highlight that the hobbits are still somewhat in a Shire state of mind, with the big ass rape monster awoken by flicking pebbles into the pond serving as a reminder that they are now off the edge of the map and should really be more careful if they don’t want to lose a Gandalf by awakening the Drums in the Deeps.
[QUOTE=njtt]
Tolkien’s world is a very rich one, with much that remains unexplained (just like the real world). That is a large part of the fascination of the books, and something that Jackson’s movies, excellent as they were, can scarcely capture. There are all sorts of evil beings in Middle Earth that are never really “explained” and do not owe any particular allegiance to Sauron or Saruman, or even necessarily Morgoth. The watcher in the lake is just one example, Old Man Willow is another, and probably Shelob. The balrog, too, is scarcely explained in the LOTR trilogy. Neither, really, are the barrow wights. Likewise there are good or goodish beings that care little or nothing about the War of the Ring, and do not really “fit in” on the side of the Elves and Gandalf, or even the Valar. Tom Bombardil is the prime example; Beorn might be another, or the Drúedain, or even the Ents.
[/QUOTE]
Fair point, but that’s not exactly what I meant.
Middle Earth being a fantasy world and a Nordic Saga world, it’s naturally bound to be filled with monsters wherever civilization isn’t. But those other examples make fantastic ecological sense - ancient tombs have ghosts in them, or even armies of ghosts sealed in a can waiting to be unleashed on the armies of darkness in a Necrid Ex Machina ? Of course they do, they’re ancient burial grounds !
Old Man Willow is a creepy ass living tree in the middle of the creepy dark woods, that also makes sense (even more so when there are Ents in the world - I always sort of figured he was a very old Ent gone bad and insane in solitude). Regardless of its background Shelob is a big spider in a dank cave in bloody Mordor, that feeds on the occasional lost orc. Same with its progeny in Mirkwood : big spiders have a niche in the woods. Giant eagles on the peaks of giant mountains, big hermits in the hills who happen to be werebears, living trees quietly making plant steroids in one of the last of the Old Forests of the world, fire demons awoken from digging too deep into the bowels of the Earth, dragons sleeping on piles of gold under the Mountain… all of these things fit in their milieu and, while naturally fantastic in nature, still make fantastic sense to me.
The Watcher however stands out as egregiously random. Not as random as Bombadil perhaps, but it’s still a giant sea monster in a pond. A pond no-one ever goes near, a pond that’s not old as the world, and is not connected to any other body of water either. I mean, I don’t really see that thing swimming up the river like a Chtulian salmon (and somehow crossed the dam ?)
[QUOTE=the_diego]
OT, remember that Sauron peopled Moria with his creatures after the Balrog appeared.
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Really ? I didn’t remember that part. Hmm. So maybe it’s as simple as A Wizard Did It then.
[QUOTE=squeegee]
In the movie, Saruman is seen exhorting (in Elvish, I guess) Caradhras to bring down his wrath on the fellowship. In the books it’s much more ambiguous - words are said that Caradhras is bad mojo, the party then gets stuck in a storm trying to traverse that peak, but no connection to Saruman is made.
[/QUOTE]
There is, but it’s more subtle : if I remember the timeline correctly, they’re climbing up the peak and doing all right, then they’re noticed by a flight of crebain which Gandalf explains are often used as spies by Saruman, and a short while later all wintery hell breaks loose.
In fact, Gandalf pretty much precisely steps up and addresses this:
“Something has crept, or has been driven out of the dark waters under the mountains.”
Whatever that thing is, it used to live waaaaay down in the bottomless deeps of the earth, but it has managed to make its way to the lake before the gate. So yes, it seems that the lake connects to something down below. And, well, it may not be apparent from the movie, but we’re not talking about a ‘pond’ here. While it might not be Loch Ness, it IS basically a flooded valley, not a fishing hole.
(and somehow crossed the dam ?)