LOTR: Where are the Elves going?

Cafe Society
1

This has always puzzled me and re-watching LOTR:TTT recently brought it once again to mind (I read the books too).

The elves throughout the series are going on about leaving Middle Earth and going to the “West”. Is this a euphemism for them dying? Are they just sailing to Middle Earth’s equivalent of Australia and getting away from everyone else? Are they going to another world? Another plane of existence? It seems like a pretty big deal to them (Galadriel mentions she is now able to go into the West after not succumbing to the Ring of Power).

I never did get this. Anyone know?

2

This can be a lengthy answer, which I’ll leave to other respondants. The short version (without referring to the LOTR books, so please correct any errors) is that the elves are going across the sea to where the Valar dwell, the Valar being the Middle-Earth equivalent of the Greek gods. When the world was created, the Valar created the immortal elves to populate it. Some elves chose to go to Middle Earth, but they have the option of returning to the land of the Valar when they grow weary of Middle Earth. This involves a westward voyage over the sea.

3

Ok but why the mass migration? I could see an immortal elf at some point getting tired of Middle Earth and here and there one would pop-off to go live with the gods. Is it because they have decided the time of men has come and there is no place for them in Middle Earth any longer?

Also, from your description, I assume that not just anyone can sail west and stumble upon where the elves went. If that is so is where the elves are going even technically on Middle Earth?

POTENTIAL SPOILER!!! If you haven’t read the books and don’t want the end of the next movie revealed STOP READING!!! (sorry it isn’t in the thread title but this didn’t occur to me when I started the thread)
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Finally (it’s been a long time since I read the books) but do Bilbo and Gandalf go to the same place as the elves at the end ot RotK? I remember they get on a boat and sail off but I can’t remember if it was a metaphor for them dying (or fading away) or if they were just on to some new place (and if that ‘new’ place was the same place the elves are going to).

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I think the short answer is yes.

Re: Gandalf and Bilbo (AND Frodo, and Sam and Gimli, eventually): Yes, they go to the same place. It isn’t a metaphor for them dying.

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They’re going because their era in Middle Earth is passing, and the time for men to dominate is coming. Also, elves apparently are born with a desire to return to the Undying Lands, which stays with them throughout their lives in Middle Earth.

In fact we’re just seeing the last stragglers in The Lord of the Rings books; most elves went there thousands and thousands of years before the events of LotR.

I think that Gandalf does go to Aman (the main continent in the Undyling Lands) but Bilbo goes to Tol Eressea, an island just off of Aman where many elves live, where he stays until he dies.

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** SPOILERS**
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As I understand it, the Elves are going to the Undying Lands, which are not on the same plain of existance as Middle Earth. The elves must go to the Grey Havens, on the northwestern shore of the Middle Earth maps shown in the novels. They are sailing over on Elven ships, so I’m sure they posess some sort of special navigation that the ships of mortals do not.
The reason that the elves are leaving en masse at the time of LOTR is that they foresee the end of their time on Middle Earth. Much of their power lies within the three Elven Rings, which are themselves linked to the One Ring of Power. The elves are in a lose-lose situation: if the Ring is recovered by Sauron, he will have power over the elves. If the Ring is destroyed, the Elven Rings will also be diminished. The same fate will befall all the other rings (the seven dwarf rings and the nine rings of men, worn by the Black Riders). Basically, we’re witnessing the end of “magic” in the world, when creatures such as elves and wizards dissappear and gradually become the stuff of legend.
Bilbo and Gandalf are indeed going to the Undying Lands. Gandalf is a wizard, one of the Istari sent by the Valar to help the people of Middle Earth fight Sauron. His job is done, so he is returning to them. Bilbo was a Ring-bearer, which apparently gets you a free pass to the Undying Lands. This doesn’t mean he’s now immortal (although his lifespan has been stretched longer than normal) but he will apparently be able to find peace from the weariness the Ring left him with.

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They go to the undying lands, aka Valinor. Easternmost of the undying lands is the island of Avalonnë. West of Avalonnë is the main landmass of Valinor, with the Noldorin city Tirion, Valmar, the halls of Mandos, the gardens of Lorien, and so on. The Valar and Maiar dwell there in bless, with the Vanyar (the high elves, including Ingwë, High King of all elvendom), a remnant of the Noldor (deep elves) under their king Finarfin, and the Teleri (sea elves) who live on the shore at Alqualondë under their King, Olwë.

Originally the elves arose in Middle-Earth, but the Powers thought they were cool, and invited them to come home to Valinor with them to live. Most did. Some stayed in Middle-earth, like Legolas’ people.

Ages ago, most of the Noldor rebelled against the Valar, and left Valinor to make war on Morgoth, their great enemy in Middle-Earth. Galadriel was one of the rebels. Sauron was the lieutenant of Morgoth. This ended badly for the Noldor. They were long exiled from Valinor, until the end of the First Age.

The undying lands used to be physically joined to middle-earth, but back towards the end of the second age, when the Edain of Numenor (Aragorn’s people) rebelled against the rule of the Valar and sought to seize the undying lands for their own, the world was changed, and the undying lands removed from the circles of the world. Since then, only the elves, or those others allowed by the Valar could sail from middle-earth west by the “straight road” to reach the undying lands.

The time of the elves in middle-earth has passed, and it is doomed for those who remain there to slowly dwindle, or fade, in body and spirit. Or they can sail west to join their kin and the Powers, and await the world’s ending.

The spirits of all elves whose bodies are destroyed go back to Valinor, to the halls of Mandos, where they hang out, and may eventually get issued new bodies. None of the Powers know where the spirits of men end up, as they leave the circles of creation. Hence the “gift of men”, which the Powers themselves may come to envy as the ages wear on.

BTW, a mortal setting foot on the undying lands would not become immortal himself.

Hope that clarifies.

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BTW, Tol Eressëa = Avalonnë. Those elves have two or three dozen names for everything!

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The Valar didn’t created the Elves, but Eru/Illuvatar “The One” God. The Valar are spirits of power and can create living things and shape the world, but the Elves and Men are the Children of Illuvatar, in which the Valar didn’t have any part in their creation. The above posts cover the reason for the Elves’ depature, so I won’t address that again.

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Thanks QtM…very scholarly and it answers the question. Glad someone read the Silmarillion and made sense of it ;)!

That aside what’s the gig with Galadriel? Everyone seems especially firghtened of her (compared to the other elves). The “witch” who lives in the forest and so on. Is she as cranky as she is made out to be or just misunderstood? How do the other elves generally feel about her? Finally, why does she say she is now able to go into the West after resisting the temptation of the Ring of Power as if she couldn’t do so previously?

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It’s not so much that she’s able to, but that she will return to the west now. The idea that she will fade, and go into the west, and “remain Galadriel” – this relates to the fact that she is somewhat of a big honcho over here in Middle Earth, but will be small potatoes in the Undying Lands (as the Valar are the big honchos).

She is a ring bearer – she has one of the 3 Elven rings. Their power is a large part of what keeps Lothlorien and Rivendell what they are – timeless and beautiful elven lands. She recognizes that if Frodo succeeds (which he must, or Sauron will take over all), the destruction of the rings will also cause the elven rings’ power to fade, and thus the elven lands and works on Middle Earth will fade.

By resisting the ring, she is allowing Frodo to continue his quest – and she knows this means that the Elves’ time in Middle Earth must come to an end.

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er… that should read “The destruction of the One Ring will also cause the elven rings’ power to fade”

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~tiny hijack~

Interestingly enough, “to go West” was a euphemism for dying among the ancient Egyptians.

I don’t know if Tolkien knew this. Whether he did or not, since the inspirations from his work were from northern European legend, it’s more likely the West the elves referred to was akin to Tir n’an Og and/or Avalon, which of course the name Avalonnë suggests.

The idea of death/transition having a connection to the West makes sense, since that’s where the sun sets.

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The Elves? I think they were out shopping for some blue suede shoes.

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Slight hijack-

I thought that Sauron had the nine rings in his possession and that the wraiths were controlled by their previous ownership of them.

Also, does anyone know where the one ring was when Numenor fell and Sauron was ‘killed’ for a short time? It seems to me that if he had it on his person it would have been lost to the sea, but why would he have left it in Mordor?

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The Ringwraiths posssess the nine rings. Each was a former king/high wizard, who wore the rings. I believe they have to be wearing their ring for Sauron to control them like he does. The Black Riders ARE the ringwraiths- they go by many names in the book. They are also described as the Nazgul, and one of them is the Witch King.

Aragorn’s ancestor (his name escapes me) was tempted by it, and started to carry it back, but he was killed by Orcs, and the ring fell into a river. I suppose it got pretty well buried under the gravel because it was down there for god knows how long until Smeagol’s cousin found it.

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Re: Galadriel…

When the War of the Jewels between the elves and Morgoth ended, most of the Noldor were given clemency if they admitted that they were wrong to defy the Valar and return to Middle-Earth. Galadriel refused to do so, choosing exile over humiliation. In them milennia of her exile, she did many things that atoned for her pride, such as creating Lothlorien, helping to guide the forces of Light in Middle-Earth, and offering refuge to those who were hunted by Sauron. But the one thing that truly proved to the Valar that Galadriel had gained the wisdom to return to the West was her refusal of the Ring when it was offered to her. She proved her foresight (that the Age of Man spelled the end of the elves) and her ability to accept the inevitable (fighting to preserve her corner of paradise would lead to nothing). So at the end of the War of the Ring, the Valar granted her permission to return West, to her father and her people.

As to why she was feared so much, Galadriel was more than some simple wood elf. She was a princess of the Noldor, granddaughter of Finwe, king of the Noldor, a powerful sorceress trained by Melian the Maia herself, many thousands of years old, the bearer of a Ring of Power, and the Queen of Lothlorien, which had a slightly dangerous reputation among the Men of that region because of its isolationism and unfriendliness to intruders.

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Incubus: Aragorn’s ill-fated ancestor was Isildur.

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Incubus-
I know the ringwraiths were once men and were originally given the rings, I was just under the impression that Sauron now had them all (along with the remaining dwarf rings). I don’t remember why I thought that, so it may have just been a misunderstanding.

The second question about Sauron and the ring goes back before Isildur (sp?) and what was depicted in the movie. At one point Aragorns distant ancestors lived on an island near almost within sight of Tol Eressëa (see above). I believe that island was called Numenor. Sauron was taken captive there for a time and was ‘killed’ when the island was destroyed by the Valinor. This was definatly after he made the ring, but before it was taken from him by Isildur.

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bsane, I don’t think it’s very clear exactly what happened to the Ring at that time. Some people assume that he left it in Mordor when he was captured by the Numenoreans, as he didn’t necessarily have to be wearing it to get the benefit of its powers (it was, after all, primarily him) at that time. When Numenor was destroyed, Sauron’s physical body was destroyed with it and his spirit was assumed to have been attracted back to Mordor by the Ring, where he began the long process of reconstructing a body. This is not any kind of canon, though, as I believe Tolkien never actually unequivocally clarified this point.

As to the disposition of the dwarf rings, there is some mention that after Sauron realized that they didn’t work to enslave the dwarfs to him he tried to recover them. He’d managed to recapture three (I believe), including that worn by Thorin Oakenshield’s father Thrain, the descendant of Durin’s House. The others were assumed to be either hidden in dragon hoards or hidden in dragon bellies, as the dragon/dwarf antipathy (mostly over treasure) was pretty pronounced, and many dwarf kings had found themselves part of the Middle-Earth version of Lucky Dragon Buffet…with a twist.