Frodo's End and Other Questions Concerning Tolkien's Work

Cafe Society
1

First of all, those who have not read the Lord of the Rings will have bits of it spoiled by this thread. You have been warned.

Now, onto my first question. At the end of the Lord of the Rings, Frodo sails west to the land of the elves. I cannot recall its true name, but it was called the Undying Lands by some. Now, the question I have is: did Frodo gain immortality in these lands, or die as he normally would? Do the Undying Lands bestow immortality or are they named such because they are the land of the immortal elves?
Second, why wouldn’t a dwarf have been a better choice to carry the ring? If memory serves, the dwarves fared far better than both elves* or men to the invitations of the various dark forces. However, the dwarves seemed to be far tougher than the other races in matters physical and mental. True, the dwarves did succumb to greed, but that was not due to the actions of the dark forces of Middle Earth. So, why not use a dwarf? Why were hobbits better suited for the task?
Finally, what happened to Sauron after the ring was destroyed? Sauron was a minor god, so I imagine destroying him would be impossible, unless Illuvatar became involved. When Saruman is “killed” his spirit retreated back to the west. Where did Sauron’s spirit go or was he completely destroyed with the ring?

*By the way, I would like to point out that Elrond hardly has the authority to rant about the weakness of men because elves were hardly stronger. I am not so certain that Elrond could have destroyed the ring either.

2

My understanding from Silmarillion is that immortality is the blessing of all who visit the undying lands. This is why the men of Numenor, tempted by Sauron, blasphemed by trying to sail west. Even if Sauron doesn’t provide the most reliable evidence, I don’t think the elves would have invited Bilbo west if they would only have to bury him a few weeks after he got there.

**

Supposing that it weren’t simply a matter of fate: a compelling reason for the choice of a hobbit is because the hobbits were unknown to all legends outside the shire. You want to do something quietly, a member of the forgotten race might be a very good choice.
Also, it may not be reading much too much into things to consider a widespread prejudice against dwarves. Recall that the circumstances where the dwarves were created were unique (an impatient god did it without any authorization from the chief). Perhaps dwarves were considered a second-class race.
**

[QUOTE]

Finally, what happened to Sauron after the ring was destroyed? Sauron was a minor god, so I imagine destroying him would be impossible, unless Illuvatar became involved. When Saruman is “killed” his spirit retreated back to the west. Where did Sauron’s spirit go or was he completely destroyed with the ring?
**

[QUOTE]

It is most widely believed that Sauron founded a software company. For the first few thousand years, the company was called MordorSoft. But there weren’t too many buyers until the mid-80’s, when the company changed their name. :wink:

IIRC, Sauron’s spirit still existed… at least the part of it that he didn’t pour into the Ring. Since the Ring contained a considerable portion of Sauron’s malice and power (like a removable hard drive, perhaps?), Sauron didn’t amount to much after the destruction of the ring.

**

Also IIRC, Elrond, like Gandalf, did not dare to accept the ring. Elrond knew that one qualification for the ring-bearer position would be an incomplete understanding of its power.

3

I don’t see there being any big obstacle to removing Sauron. Sauron was just a lieutenant of Morgoth and look what they did to him.

4

Well, a trip to Tol Eressea doesn’t automatically confer immortality on the traveller, even if he has permission to go there. Here’s what Tolkien himself says on the matter:

He goes on to say that Bilbo’s trip west is for similar reasons – his time on Tol Eressea is partly to purge the last lingering effects of the Ring (recall that, when they go through Rivendell on the way back, he asks about “my ring”).

Incidentally, Tolkien’s short story “Leaf by Niggle” has a similar depiction of purgatory – it’s a lovely story and I highly recommend it. :slight_smile:

As far as having a hobbit ringbearer: I think Gandalf explains it when he says that Bilbo, and consequently Frodo, were meant to have it – so, like Engywook says, “a matter of fate,” or rather the will of Eru (which is the name for God in Tolkien’s mythos).

5

I agree with Katisha, Frodo, Sam, and Gimli went west to Aman to live out the rest of their natural lives, then passed in to whatever fate awaits their races (which is unknown to both elves and men).

It is my opinion that Sauron was completely destroyed. The other possibility is that his remaining essence was dispersed to the point of complete inability to act in the material or spiritual world. I fail to see any effective difference between the two.

6

I don’t think Sam went, Genseric

7

Babar: No, he didn’t, but I believe Frodo or Gandal hinted that he would in time. Remember, he did carry the One Ring briefly.

Mandos: I think Gimli could have probably carried the rind as long as Frodo without being corrupted. However, contrast the two’s styles. Frodo and the other halflings were much better at sneaking around than dwarves. I think this is important since the brute force of a few wasn’t going to get the One Ring to the Mount of Doom.

8

Christ, I need proofread my shit more thoroughly. That should be ring instead of rind in the above post. Unless, of course, they were carrying the One Cheese.

9

In the appendix of LOTR it states in 1482 SR Samwise left Bag End, left the Red Book to his daughter Elanor, and tradition hands down from her that he went to the Grey Havens, and passed over the Sea, last of the Ringbearers.

10

Yeah, but that took the combined might of the Valar, their Maiar, the Vanyar, the Noldor who had not rebelled, the Sindar who transported them back to Middle-Earth, and the remaining Edain in Beleriand.

And since Sauron returned to power because of the weakness of both the Noldor in exile and the men of the west, I can see why the Valar declined to act directly on their behalf again. Rather they chose to kick their butts into gear.

11

Not to mention that that little tussle with Morgoth resulted in the near-complete sinking of Beleriand. Perhaps one reason the Valar didn’t intervene directly was that they wanted the remaining lands of Middle Earth to remain above sea-level!

12

Definitely the latter - the Undying lands are merely the lands where the undying races (the Elves and the Ainur) dwell. In addition to the letter Katshia quoted, Tolkien wrote an essay entitled “Aman” (which can be found in the History of Middle Earth volume 12) which explicitly states that mortals age and die in the Undying Lands.

13

From ROTK Ch.4 The field of Cormallen, as the Ring-Bearer fulfils his his quest:

I have always read this as the final manifestation and dissolution of Sauron.

It seems pretty final.

14

Elrond says that if the ring were destroyed, Sauron’s fall would be so complete that the wise could not foresee his arising ever again. Not exactly dead, but a fair approximation, considering that the wise had already seen ten thousand years. Elves don’t throw around the word “ever.” Sauron was of the Maiar. He is not of the world, but came into it at the beginning. He probably left, and could not return. Morgoth was expelled from Arda by the will of the Valar, at the end of the first age. He was unable to return. Sauron was maimed when the Valar laid aside their power, and called upon Eru directly, and he overthrew Numenor, and cast it into the abyss in the sea. Sauruman was probably Maiar also, and was likewise not of the world. Of the beings who ever left the world, only Beren returned to it, and that was only for a sort time.

Dwarves were strongly resistant to coercion by magical rings. It doesn’t say they do not affect them, only that one cannot control a Dwarf that way. Not a good set of criteria for a bearer of an ultimate weapon we hope never to have used. Resisting a temptation to great power takes wisdom, and common sense, along with a well developed sense of one’s real place in the world. Hobbits have those things. Well, at least three of them did.

It says in Silmarillion that the Valar are not permitted to take from men the Gift of Eru to Man. That gift is death, which means men leave the world, and go beyond it. Elves do not leave Arda, but rather pass into Mandos, which is part of Arda. Only Luthien, and Arwen have received the Gift of Men. (It does sort of slide by Elros, who was able to choose the fate of elves, and chose not to, but he doesn’t get listed among those lost to the elves.)

Aman, the blessed realm, is removed from the circle of the world in the end of the third age. After that, all paths are bent, and the world becomes spherical, with no path to Aman. It’s a tragedy, in the traditional epic fashion. Much that was evil is overcome, but much that was good is lost forever because of it. Now lesser beings must take the stage, but in the end, their works will be the greater, though not more beautiful.

Tris

15

Since all the LOTR minds are reading here, can I post a quick (probably stupid) question: What’s up with Bilbo’s age?

At the beginning he has a party for being eleventy one.(111??)

One year later when the party return he celebrates his 129th birthday. What did I miss?

16

The rather large gap (oh, 16 years or so) between the Party, and Frodo and Co. actually setting off on their little adventure?

As in - Gandalf didn’t do all his research and tracking of Gollum in a few weeks, the way it is in the movie. It takes years for him to find out it’s probably the One Ring that Bilbo found.

17

Not much, IIRC. Frodo and company just sat around for seventeen years while Gandalf did some research to see if the ring really was the One. The hobbits start their quest when Frodo is 50 (same age as Bilbo in The Hobbit)

18

The fact that there was about 27-28 years (in the book) between Bilbo’s 111st birthday, and Frodo actually embarking on his quest. In this time, Gandalf convinces himself (through long, carefully thought-out perusal, instead of a hasty glance at some old papers) that Frodo’s ring is the One Ring. Also, it’s during this period that the little conspiracy between Sam, Merry, and Pippin forms.

19

Whoops, typo. 17-18 years (didn’t the quest take about a year?). MrDibble and Ryoushi beat me to it.

Damned vodka.

20

Ah ha…

I never re-read the first book after seeing the film, just “The Two Towers” and “The Return of the King”. If I had I guess I would have spotted that. Doh!

Thanks. (I just knew it would be a stupid question)