I’m going to throw out a dissenting opinion here. In the Appendices at the end, where they’re listing dates of birth and death for significant characters, it’s stated that “no dates of death are given for those who went across the Sea, for they live yet”. And sure enough, no date of death is listed for Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, or Gimli. This may mean that life is prolonged in Valinor, not indefinitely, but for at least a few thousand years. On the other hand, it might just be a mistake.
And I’m pretty sure that they were sailing to Valinor in the end, not just to Tol Eressea. Remember, Gandalf is “returning to the West”, and his West is Valinor.
It says nothing of the kind! At least, not anywhere that I can find. Page reference, please?
A few more quotes from the Letters…
“For as emissaries from the Valar clearly inform [Ar-Pharazon, the Numenorian king who tried to sail into the West], the Blessed Realm does not confer immortality. The land is blessed because the Blessed dwell there, not vice versa, and the Valar are immortal by right and nature, while men are mortal by right and nature.” (#156, n.)
“As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time – whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer ‘immortality’ upon them. Their sojourn was a ‘purgatory,’ but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing.” (#325, emphasis Tolkien’s)
I’m still looking for a cite for this, but I’m fairly sure the mortals who passed over Sea didn’t go to Valinor itself…
A few unmentioned things and people: has Tolkien or anyone else ever mentioned what happened to the remaining Dwarf rings? I know Sauron has three of them but what did he do with them?
Weren't Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast only three of a larger number who came to Middle Earth? I remember reading that somewhere, but not what happened to them.
Why didn't Sauron use or have control over the Balrogs? Wouldn't he have "inherited" them from Morgoth?
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Even so, this doesn’t really make any difference. The fiction is that LOTR and the appendices is really “The Red Book of Westmarch” and that it was compiled just a few years after the events it describes.
I haven’t heard anywhere that he gave them back out. The Great Ring Experiment didn’t work too well on Dwarves so why bother? After Frodo’s quest they would have been little more than jewelry.
The Balrogs were Maiar just like Sauron. All my readings of JRRT’s works, including HOMES always has the balrogs serving Morgoth. There was never a hint of Sauron commanding them. Having lost their superior, they probably felt they were on their own.
Besides, apparently only one balrog survived the War of Wrath and the Break of Thangorodrim, and he kept a pretty low profile from then on.
The only reference to the Blue Wizards in the prehumously published work is in the confrontation between Gandalf and Saruman in The Two Towers, where Saruman mockingly refers to “the staves of the Five Wizards”. We know of three (Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast), so there must be two others.
And Katisha, I’m up at the office right now, so I’ll have to get back to you on that cite. Are the Appendices also considered to be part of the Red Book? If not, I’m inclined to give them more weight than the unpublished letters.
I have to admit I never read right to the end of the trilogy. I tried, really I did, and got through most of Fellowship of the Ring before admitting defeat. But I’ve always wanted to know, what happened to Gollum? As a kid who was somewhat of a loner I identified with him quite a bit. So, what happened? Did he come to a bad end or was he redeemed in some way?
Well I’ll put this in a spoiler tag, even although the book is 50 years old.
At the end of the quest at Mount Doom, Frodo is finally overcome by the Ring and cannot destroy it. He claims it as his own and puts it on. Gollum, who has been following Frodo and Sam, wrestles with the invisible Frodo and bites his ring finger off. Delighted to be reunited with his Precious, Gollum does a happy dance and accidentally falls into the Cracks of Doom. Gandalf’s intuition that Gollum would have a part to play after Pity stayed Bilbo’s hand many years before is proved to be true.
Heh. I must comment that the phrase “happy dance” is a really great invention of modern English jargon. It encapsulates a mood that is not properly described by any other words. Spot-on usage here, too.
That is another point that I wonder about. It seems that Gollum’s behavior does not suit the ring well at all, and the ring should have the power to make Gollum do something a little less hazardous.
OTOH, Frodo did warn Gollum that something like this would happen if:
Gollum ever laid hands on the Precious again.
Perhaps the power of the ring amplified Frodo’s warning to a curse? Thus the ring’s own power got it into a tight spot in Mordor?
Thanks, btw, to all the posters on this thread, for all the enlightening posts. Katisha esp.
I can’t find this, Chronos. In the genealogy for the dwarves in Appendix A, Gimli is listed with the dates 2879-3141 (F.A. 120). That Appendix ends with the note of the legend that after the death of Aragorn, Gimli went west with Legolas, the last surviving members of the Fellowship in Middle-Earth. Since Aragorn died in F.A. 120 (App. A, I, (ii), that notation for Gimli is ambiguous - he may have died in F.A. 120, or he may have left Middle-Earth that year.
Appendix C gives the family trees for the Bagginses and the Gamgees, and it’s true that they don’t record deaths for Bilbo, Frodo or Sam. However, the note at the beginning of the Appendix just says: “The figures after the names are those of birth (and death where that is recorded).”
Regarding the narrative status of the Appendices – the fiction is that they’ve been compiled from other sources by Tolkien as translator. (There’s a note in the Prologue about what kind of sources these are – Shire records, histories written after the completion of the Red Book, and so forth.)
Incidentially, Tolkien does write in his own person (well, within the narrative fiction) in Appendix F.
You know, there’s just something about having six appendices to a work of fiction that takes away something from the majesty of the novels. Sometimes the picture IS overpainted.
Anyway, I did have a question; is Middle Earth dying? I only ask because the impresison I get from the books, which was reinforced by the movie, is that Middle Earth is… well, stagnant. Old, and not going anywhere. It seems as if there used to be more than there is, if you catch my drift.
Depends on what you mean by dying, RickJay, considering that Middle Earth is out world a few tens of thousands of years ago, it seems still pretty alive to me. But as is mentioned in the books, much of the fairer things are passing away in the third and fourth age. One of the comments made by Tolkien later in Unfinished Tales I believe, is that the elves don’t like change, their immortal nature makes it hard for them, the world is changing, and they can’t stop it, so they are leaving, and with their leaving, much that is fair passes with them. So from that standpoint, yes, Middle Earth is dying, or at least becoming more dull.
Definitely have to agree with that - I haven’t seen any Eldar in my neighborhood for ages. Where IS Fingolfin these days, anyway? Maybe Mandos revoked his posting privileges?
