OK, the thread on Eowyn and the death of the witch king has got me started.
Before those events, the witch king is on hand when Grond breaks through the great gate of Minas Tirith, where he finds Gandalf barring his way. The witch king makes a lot of brave talk, calling Gandalf “old fool” and so on.
[QUOTE=RotK]
The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter.
‘Old fool!’ he said. ‘Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!’ And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade.
[/QUOTE]
(Note that in the extended scenes in the movie, the witch king goes so far as to break Gandalf’s staff and Gandalf is knocked backwards to the ground. If my memory serves, this did not happen in the book. In the book, the witch king is called away to fight with the Rohirrim immediately after his little speech above.)
Now, suppose that Rohan had not attacked for, say, another 30 minutes, so that the witch king and Gandalf had plenty of time to square off. Would the witch king have stood any chance of causing any damage to Gandalf? Would Gandalf have been able to damage or destroy the witch king? (Note: Gandalf is not actually a man, he only looks like one, so he is enough of “not a man” to meet the terms of Glorfindel’s prophecy.)
I would put all my money on Gandalf. He might not have been able to completely destroy the witch king, but I think he would have been able to make him flee to the shadows again. At this point Gandalf probably has more power than any being on Middle Earth possibly excepting Sauron. I know it was not his job to do major fighting like this, but if it came to him, in defense of Gondor he would not back down.
Well, at least in the film, Gandalf was knocked for six just by meeting the Witch King face-to-face. He could’ve been finished off, except ol’ Witchy was “called away” by whatever routine movie cliché…
But here’s what I don’t get. The Witch-King of Angmar had been encountered before, on Weathertop, where he stabbed Frodo with a deadly evil knife. And yet, even though Gandalf wasn’t around, Aragon managed to chase him away merely by WAVING A BURNING STICK IN HIS FACE. Now…how come the oh-so-scary King was virtually undefeatable at Pelennor Fields (“No man can kill me!”) yet such a total wimp in the first movie? That makes no sense! :mad:
re Weathertop: The Black Riders, including the Witch-king, allowed themselves to be driven away because they had accomplished their purpose of wounding Frodo; wounding Frodo with a special knife. A piece of that knife would eventually have turned him into a wraith, under the domination of Sauron. Fortunately, he got to Rivendell in time to be (mostly) cured.
Also, my understanding is that all of the riders were more powerful closer to Mordor.
The Witch-King – and all the Nazgûl – are basically extensions of the will of Sauron. Their relative power is going to vary depending upon how much of his will is focused upon them. Sauron’s strength is growing throughout the books’ timeline: in Fellowship he is just beginning to reach out beyond Mordor; by Return he’s dominating a large part of Middle-Earth (and Gondor is just across the river from Mordor; not half the continent away like Wethertop).
That’s why the Witch-King says it is “[his] hour” to Gandalf before the gates of Gondor; Sauron has been focusing all his will for centuries on the moment he defeats Gondor and takes his revenge on Isildur.
I, personally, would not put money on Gandalf against the Witch-King at that point in time. When Glorfindel scared off the Witch-King, it was much too soon in Sauron’s plans. Gandalf is caught at the moment Sauron’s plans are being realized. Furthermore, Gandalf – although an incarnate Maia – was supposed to inspire men to great deeds. He wasn’t intended to do their great deeds for them (flashy lightshows in the movies notwithstanding). Against the Balrog it was Maia vs. Maia, but Sauron (and his Nazgûl) were a problem the Valar left to men (and elves, etc.) to solve.
Glorfindel: “Do not pursue him! He will not return to these lands. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall.”
Wikipedia: Gandalf: Race: Maia
It’s a little ambiguous, but I think the idea he was killed by both Éowyn and Merry, who fit the bill as “not man.” Although it seems to me that hobbits are rather close to humans, not Homo sapiens sapiens, but Homo halflingus, or Homo sapiens hobbitses. Maybe the prophecy requires 99.7% genetic similarity, minimum.
But yeah, Gandalf is basically a support caster, not a tank or DPS machine. Unglamorous as hell, but essential. He could kill a Wraith, but he wouldn’t. Kind of like a True Scotsman or Batman being prepared: Batman always wins when prepared, and if he loses then he must’ve not prepared. Gandalf could, he just doesn’t wanna, or it will ruin balance in the Force, or something.
He has a reoccurring dream of being naked in public, and besides, where is he going to find new tattered black robes in gauche Western Middle Earth after his old ones burn?
Noted in the OP and why I wanted to discuss canon from the book, not interpretation from the movie.
And, thelurkinghorror, I agree with everything you said, but what if Gandalf didn’t have a choice? Is he going to let the witch king kill him, or run away or something?
Lightray, Sauron has been preparing for centuries, but in a sense so has Gandalf. Gandalf has gone through the fire and been re-born, and it is his Eru-given purpose to defeat Sauron (if not through direct combat, then somehow). How can Gandalf allow the witch king to conquer Minas Tirith and Gondor? And, critically, Sauron still doesn’t have his ring, which contains no small part of his power.
The witch king has been over-confident before (in the battle that ended in his defeat and the prophecy by Glorfindel), and I think that’s what is going on here too.
eta: “flames ran down the blade!” Ooh, so scary. I seem to recall the Balrog had a flaming sword too, for all the good it did him.
Jackson’s extended edition sequence simply got it wrong. This was his worst offense in any Middle Earth movie.
In the books Gandalf beats off (hee hee) all nine Nazgul on Weathertop when he gets there several days before Aragorn and the Four Stooges, which Frodo sees as a far off lightening storm on the mountain. Without mortals around requiring Gandalf hide his power lest they become dependent on him doing everything, he lets loose. He defends himself against all Nine.
At the gates of Minas Tirith, Angmar has no reason to believe he is not facing the same Gandalf the Grey as on Weathertop. Angmar may be more powerful due to being closer to Mordor, channeling more juice from Sauron, or whatever, but he is not. He is facing Gandalf the White. Gandalf the White can not say how he would fare against Sauron, but he isn’t the weakling that killed the Balrog, he is sent back now, at the turn of the tide with more power. And the only indication the Witch King has of it is that the guy is now wearing White. As soon as the Rohirrim sound their horn for the attack, the sea change has occurred and the Witch King must go off to his doom and we never see what would have happened, but let there be no doubt, Gandalf would have stood his ground and used all his power as the Valar’s chief emissary in Middle Earth to stop him. There is a reason that Sauron wasn’t there to do it himself. Sauron was afraid of even Gandalf the Grey, a fear he learned at the hands of Elendil, Gil-Galad and Isildur. Not because he wasn’t more powerful, but because he knew fear so well.
I don’t think that either one can destroy the other (though Gandalf the White just might have the power and, more importantly, the authority to do so). Defeat and unbodiment, though, is certainly possible. And while the Witch-King has heap bad mojo, Gandalf is not a sort of being to be subject to any of it. The only way the Witch-King can do any harm at all to Gandalf is by sticking a sharp piece of metal into him, and Gandalf is no slouch in that department either, while also having other options available to him.
The Witch-King may even have known this. It’s possible that his trash-talk to Gandalf wasn’t actually for Gandalf’s benefit at all, but to strike fear in any mortals who witnessed the confrontation (and who are subject to his mojo).
Well, in the sense that Gandalf was sent in the first place. Gandalf himself set the events in motion that called the Witch-King away to his doom. He was at the gates to make sure the timing was just right: a rest in the Song.
If we set aside all issues of fate, divine will, and cagey old wizards planning ahead…I don’t think the Witch-King would have really stood a chance. Gandalf probably couldn’t (or wouldn’t) destroy him, but neither would Gandalf have been in any serious danger from him. As Chronos said, much of the Witch-King’s power consists of things that simply won’t work on Gandalf. He, on the other hand, is rather flammable, and Gandalf does have a thing for fire.
I say the fight goes on until the Witch-King gets disembodied or flees/gets called away…which is what happened anyway, when it comes down to it.
Gandalf the White was too powerful for the Witch King. Jackson really screwed up on that scene. The Witch King may have believed he could defeat Gandalf, but he was wrong and knew not who and what he faced. Gandalf could not destroy the Witch King but he would have at least chased him off if not destroyed his current form. Gandalf had already ridden out against many Ring Wraith and rescued Faramir from them.
Gandalf the White was a greater being by far, when Eru sent him back he was no longer required to hide his true self as Gandalf the Grey. Gandalf the White was much closer to Olórin as he was in Valinor. Against he no phantom of the enemy could stand for long.
Sauron far outclasses Gandalf in the raw power game, I think.
But, Gandalf’s Eru-given purpose was not to defeat Sauron; it was to inspire men to defeat Sauron. If he does the defeating himself, he’ll end up just as fallen as Saruman. Stopping the Witch-King at the gates of Minas Tirith sure inspired the citizens, didn’t it?
But he wasn’t going to be the one to defeat the Witch-King. The Witch-King was a puppet of Sauron, and the Valar (and Eru, one supposes) had decreed that there would not be a repeat of the Valar/Maiar rescuing Middle-Earth as they had against Morgoth. Predestination is a real thing in Middle-Earth – if the Valar say something isn’t going to happen, it won’t.
Glorfindel may have prophesied that the Witch-King wouldn’t be taken down by a “man”, but the Witch-King also had the decree of the Valar on his side that the Elves/Dwarves/Men had to settle this on their own.
And I’m not sure how impressed we should be that Gandalf took down a Balrog. Several Balrogs - including their captain - were taken down in the fall of Gondolin. Glorfindel did the same thing, with the same success as Gandalf (mutual dying), and he’s “just” an elf. Círdan, Elrond, and maybe Celeborn could probably do the same. Definitely Galadriel could, and she probably surpasses Gandalf even.
Balrogs and Nazgûl are fearsome opponents, but well within range of being soloed by the high-level characters in Middle-Earth.
Though both have superhuman capabilities, they’re not really that combative. The Nazgul’s primary weapon is fear, while Gandalf’s is imbuing others with hope, courage and strength.
But if it comes down to it, Gandalf. One win under his belt.
Gandalf could have defeated the Witch-King. But the last time the Maiar(and Valar) unleashed their full power, they sank a continent. Victory is no good, if all there is left of Minas Tirith is a small pile of smoking rubble.
