Love and Sex... inextricably connected?

Lately a lot of things have been bringing to my mind the concept of the relationship between love and sex.

In chat the other night, someone said that there didn’t need to be any love for sex, just respect. Also, I have heard much talk of the concept of “anonymous sex.” Things in my life have also raised this issue, but this is neither the time nor the place to discuss them.

The question that now comes to my mind is: can the dis/connection go the other way, too?

What makes it impossible to love without sex? Ok, impossible is the wrong word, as I am sure this has been done (hasn’t it?), but it is at least a rare situation. People seem so bent on satisfying their sexual desire that to fulfill it without love is acceptable to them; does noone want love strongly enough that they would give up on sex?

Hmm… maybe I should define the use of ‘love’ in the interest of discussion, so that there is one less problem to come. This post uses ‘love’ to mean caring about someone more than oneself. It assumes that there is an element of romance involved in the action, to a varying degree but never overwhelming the care. It also assumes that the action is returned by its recipient; unrequited love is a separate issue, and a more painful one.

Anyway, it’s late and I was wondering if anyone else has thought about this. I am posting it in MPSIMS out of a fear of GD and a respect for the people I’ve found here. If someone feels it must be moved, so be it.

Pardon my odd thought processes… I can make no excuse for them save that they suit their owner by their oddity.


Le Sang

Yes, the situation you describe exists enough that it isn’t terribly rare. Sometimes people find themselves with someone they love with all of their being–would die for them, would kill for them and yet cannot completely sexualize the relationship.

There is a romantic nature to the relationship–hand holding, kissing, caressing–but no sexual feelings. Often these kinds of relationships (in my limited experience) stem from some type of emotional or sexual abuse–rape or otherwise. It is not always a case of being frigid either as often, these same people can be sexual with someone they do not love.

I’ve seen both kinds–individuals who cannot sexualize at all but can love very deeply and individuals who only have problems sexualizing with someone they truly love.

And then there are individual cases where two people will often sacrifice sexual behavior for love. (The only examples I can think of here are brother/sister “marriages” and in cases of severe injury or life-threatening illness.)

This may or may not have any bearing on what you asked but I am tired and I apologize if I have misunderstood your question.

Well, I would say that it certainly does happen, and probably very frequently. The one caveat I’d add to probably get closer to your intended question is that the sexless love be would exist throughout the relationship. I say this because I wager many, and possibly the majority, of elderly couples live in a unquestionably loving relationship which lacks sex. The lack of sex may be bacause one of both parties no longer are hormonally/physically able to have sex, or due to simple aged lack of lust between to old frail bodies. Its certain that the vast bulk of couples began as two highly sexual beings, regardless of if it began prior to the sexual revolution, but the simply out grew it. I doubt this exists as part of your query.

A second situation is in the case of a couple maintaining a relationship for the sake of their children. A couple could begin hot and heavy, deep in love and lust, and have children along with the white picket fence, but for one reason or another grow apart later. This couple most often remains loving, but not passionately so. Outside circumstances like children certainly put couples in relationships lacking sex.

Finally, there are also cases like evilbeth described in which one or both parties are emotionally unable to enjoy sex in a healthy way. In such cases love and sex are necessarily divided.

So, I’m going to assume that you are looking for cases where a couple is not interested in sex, in spite of the fact that they are deeply in love when the relationship is in its simpler early stages. Perhaps where the two parties are simply not physically attracted to one another, but connect on the most fundamental of emotional levels. This is indeed rare, nearly unheard of.

The reason for this is absurdly simple in my eyes. Humans are animals, driven by all the lovely survival instincts. We absolutely must eat, drink, have shelter, and reproduce. Overlooking various statistically rare mental and emotional flaws, these factors are never usurped. No where in that does love come into play. Sex, however, is quite critical to maintain the species, and every living thing’s main purpose is to propogate itself. Food, drink and shelter are simply steps that must be taken in order to facilitate the propogation of the species. Sex, ergo, is our number one fundamental drive.

Love is a social creation which intelligent (and perhaps present in other lower mammals) humans have developed as a need. We don’t really need love, but eons of human evolution has conditioned us to see it as one. You might argue that if a man were to grow in a isolated surrounding, in which he were not presented with love as a critical element to life, he would never believe he was missing anything without love. As long as he had a female to copulate with, he may never know he’s missing out on anything. Why, as a society, have humans grown to need love? Well, I’d guess that it simply provides a more opportune situation to get the other 3 needs. Its simpler for a man and woman to share the feeding, and shelter responsibilities than to exist seperately until its time to meet for sex. Men and women have different assets, and a team effort raises the likelyhood of surviving to reproduce effectively. As such, love is a manufactured need. In my opinion love exists to facilitate effective sex.

If you agree with this interpretation, then its clear that sex is a more fundamental need than is love. In life biological needs almost always override psychological ones. I think this circumstance makes love a moot point without sex.

All this generalizing aside, there are certainly person to person variations which aren’t going to fit the strict scientific mold. This would explain why there are anorexics who overcome the need to eat, homosexuals who overcome the need to reproduce (no moral comparisons intended), and suicidal folks who simply brush off the survival instinct altogether. These human tendancies are going to account for the cases of sexless love, cases where our intellect overcomes our base needs. But I think when you look at the big picture you can see why casual, loveless sex is so much more common than sexless love.

Since straight sex produces children and since men needed a reliable way to ensure whose children were whose in order to pass on male property rights, the institution of marriage was created and sex outside of marriage was banned. The idea of marriage for love is comparatively recent, dating back in Western culture no earlier than the Renaissance. In other words, sex meant children meant property meant marriage, which recently came to mean love. It seems appropriate that the rise of sex which cannot produce children – such as gay sex – finally broke the tenuous abstraction between sex and love. Sex and love are not in any sense natural allies, and their separation is therefore ethically neutral and not to be feared.

I guess the question in my mind is whether there is a conscious choice to avoid sex during the relationship. I’m going to make a WAG here (and probably be shot down for it), but I think the majority of older couples, married 40 years or more, have no physical relationship. I know my parents did not, from about age 55 on. And they loved each other dearly until the end. Does anyone else have a hard time imagining being in that position? Sorry if I’m going off-topic.

Love is love.
Sex is sex.
Sex with love is best.

That being said, nasty, monkey-fuck sex ranks way up there… even in the absence of love.

I suppose it all depends on your personal definition of love, as well. My personal definition was most succinctly stated by Heinlein: Love is that condition in which another person’s happiness and well-being is essential to your own.

I love a number of non-familial people with whom I would never think of having sex (for various reasons, including the fact that two of them are engaged to be married, to other people :)). I have never done–and don’t think I ever could do–the opposite.

LL

I think they are two different things-the ancient greeks thought this way too-they conceived of physical love (eros) as essentially sex, whereas true intellectual love (agape) was what we traditionally think as love.
For the record, I love my dog very much, but I certainly do not have an erotic relationship with him.

Hmmmm…what should I wager? The giant collection of vintage skin mags I found when helping my grampa clean his basement last month?

Ah, a topic many centuries old, interesting. Is Plato around? He could talk about platonic love with ya.

“What makes it impossible to love without sex?”

Oh, my my, what on earth? IT should be "What makes it possible to love without sex???. Well, just look at how your folks raised you, they made you feel beautiful or handsome, yet never had sex with ya (Hopefully not anyway)…thats one of the best examples.

Wow :slight_smile: Thank you all for responding to my nocturnal wonderings. It’s nice to finally have a place to discuss them (though I’ll try not to ask too many of them; wouldn’t want to overdo it).

In response:[ul][li]evilbeth: no, you weren’t off topic at all, though it saddens me that the examples tend to be somehow outside mainstream society.[/li][li]Omniscient: does love’s status as a man-made need lessen its power? I have heard many a psychlogist go on about how important it is to be loved, and equally often I have heard of the power of this feeling. Is it so easily overridden by a physical desire?[/li][li]matt_mcl: It’s not that I fear the separation; I merely wonder why it tends to only work one way. While examples of people having sex without love are accepted, those who love and refrain from sex are assumed to be abnormal. Why is this so?[/li][li]ChiefScott: I certainly can’t argue… though I lack experience with some aspects of it. Hell, most of it.[/li][li]egkelly: I at least hope that this is a different kind of love than I am talking about; I’d be moderately worried if you felt romantic tendencies toward your dog. (Only moderately, though, since I did read the TMI thread…)[/li][li]handy: I understand your fame somewhat better now; how does one respond to that? However, the same thing that applied to egkelly’s love for his(?) dog applies to my parents love for me; while I know that they care about me deeply, any romantic attraction is certainly not present.[/li][/ul]Sorry if I sound like I’m nit-picking; just trying to get a handle on this issue, and this is the only way I know how aside from going out and experiencing all aspects of it (something I lack both the will and the ability to do).


Le Sang,
who has finally found a place where people don’t sneer at his silly questions :slight_smile:

Le Sang, you asked what makes love without sex impossible (to simplify, neglecting the exceptions to the rule). I answered it as simply as I could. I never diminished the power and impact of the “man-made” need for love. But it is easily overriden by the single most fundamental need to reproduce the species. Reproduction over rides every need we have, and while food or shelter might be able to overcome the need to reproduce on occasion, its going to be very unlikely that people will choose the imaginary need for love. Also consider the choosing love over sex almost necessarily precludes that person ever having sex with anyone else. It simply defies all logic to think that we’d choose love over sex. Of course humans aren’t always logical, but in the exceptions your looking for are very very rare.