Maybe Rocco wanted a little bit of time to be a regular 15 year old kid, going to school and hanging out with his friends and eating home-cooked meals and not waking up in a new city every day, instead of playing indentured concert servant who has the added bonus of hearing his mom bang kids 8 years older than him in the next hotel room? He has plenty of time to learn the business from ‘the very best.’ He won’t get his teenage years back.
So Madonna is an Asian tiger mom?:
Eliminate the celebrity status and media circus here and this is really a bread and butter difficult circumstance. It happens all the time. Sometimes it gets to court and while the kid’s wishes are considered they are not deferred to. A parent refusing to send a teen to visit the other parent when that was the agreed upon or previously court-mandated plan (whether or not the kid says s/he does not want to go) gets called contempt.
Sometimes teens in a divorced family do not want to spend time with one or the other parent. Maybe one household is more fun than the other. Maybe the teen argued with the other parent last time. Sometimes teens intentionally play parents off of each other and refuses to visit the parent who actually wants to set limits.
The basic rule most often given (and supported by the courts) is that spending time with both parents according to the established and agreed upon plans IS NOT OPTIONAL. The visitation schedule is not the teen’s to be in charge of or to decide. And BOTH parents need to be firm in supporting the need to spend time with each of them and according to the schedule unless all agree to a change. It is an actual legal obligation but more importantly it is an ethical one and one that is the teen’s best interests.
No question that the teen’s thoughts should be heard. This is not different than any other issue when teens do not like any other of the decisions made by the adults who are in charge of their lives. But as in any other case the teen does not get to and should not get to dictate what happens. And neither parent should undercut the need for both parents to have time with their child.
The person who is way out of line here is not Madonna; it’s Dad.
Kid comes to him: “I don’t wanna visit Mom over the holiday in her Manhattan townhouse. We argued when we were last together; that touring with her sucked, she made me actually work, and you know how bitchy she gets. I want to stay here with you. I have fun with you!”
Correct response: “I understand that Mom can be hard to live with; believe me. But son, she loves you very much and like it or not she is your mother and always will be. Spending time with her is not a choice, so man up and talk out your differences with her. Mom and I both recognize that you benefit from having two parents who love you in your life, even if sometimes you aren’t getting along with one or the other of us.”
Incorrect response: “You fought with Mom last time? Well sure you did. She’s a fucked up bitch. Hell, she has sex with guys not much older than you. You don’t want to visit her over the holidays, as planned? Then you don’t have to. I’ll have my lawyer see to it. She can’t make you see her if you don’t want to and let’s see them try!”
I am no big fan of Madonna but in this case she is 100% correct.
Removed.
(Repeat posted as it looked like never went but there it is.)
“Mom has let me drink since I was 13 and she posts photos of me in my underwear on Instagram without my permission with commentary about my penis. Please don’t make me stay with her anymore.”
What dad isn’t going to incur the wrath of the courts over that?
I’m neither a Madonna or Guy fan, but Rocco tried to run from her before. Maybe he felt this was his best chance to be heard.
Agree with the overall sentiment on Madonna, I noticed she has become much colder during interviews. She used to be more talkative, sometimes warm and silly on old late night and other interviews. Now she is too cold.
Madonna like any parent is foolish if they think they can control a teen, a stage where people are becoming more in tune with Eircom identity and not wanting to always be at the hip with a parent.
The fact that she wants to prevent Rocco from spending time with his father, and right the teen has is a extremely bad move on Madonna’so part.
She takes the strict parent thing way too hard. Rocco is obviously tired of touring with his mom, 2hi check he has been doing for some years now.
Exactly. To use it may seem touring is fun and all, but after a while I can see why it would get tiring. Same with traveling, it’s bound to get repetitive and draining. Rocco may want to just be a regular kid.
Madonna seems to from extremes, either allowing racy photos and outrageous stuff, to being very strict.
Not necessarily so. Unless you have some special knowledge about what was said by this young man to his father you have no basis to suggest it was simply because the kid thinks Dad is more fun. What if he didn’t want to return because of something much more troubling than your imagined conversation? None of us have all the facts about what the issue is here so to automatically assume the Dad is wrong and Mom is right and the kid just wants to stay with the “fun” parent is without any basis in what that story says.
bobkitty,
Even if the kid ever alleged any of that then still only a stupid one. If there is actual credible evidence of abuse and/or neglect you go to the court with proper venue and you present the concerns. No you do not go outside those proper venues.
Odd though.
I can find nothing about Rocco saying that his mother lets him drink and looking for it find multiple reports that she is if anything a very strict and perhaps overly controlling mother. No, a goofy posed picture of kids holding bottles of alcohol on a New Year’s Eve, while ill-advised and stupid, is not abuse or neglect. In the past Ritchie’s comments about Madonna have been along the lines of “She’s very strict.”
The linked instagram seems to show the kid doing a flip and it labelled “impressive” … I can find something referencing the post including that she tagged it saying its his preferred profile, “nosausage”, which makes me think that she had initially accidentally posted and deleted one in which said body part has slipped out without realizing it. Yes, there are media speculations that he does not like her posts that include him. And no, nothing being claimed now in this visitation conflict that he is being abused or neglected at all. The report basically reads that they did not get along during his last visit (the one in which she had him working backstage on her tour) and he does not want to spend time with her right now.
A 15 year old in a divorce circumstance not wanting to spend time with his strict parent who possibly embarrasses him in public … again, remove the celebrity aspect and it happens all the goddam time.
Given that none of us or the media actually know most of the facts of the case, what do you think should be the standard in that abstract case, given no actual even allegation by child or either parent of abuse or neglect?
Should a teen be in charge of who they visit and when and potentially able to hold their visitation up to bid? Or able to hold it hostage in case of parental conflicts? Should a divorced parent have to be afraid to argue with their teen lest they decide to not come back? Or should the teen be able to express their wishes to both parents and to someone entrusted to “help them decide” (be it in court or out) and then have that decision supported by all involved whether they agree with it or not in their hearts?
I am a married parent on my fourth teen and it is hard enough to deal with teens getting angry with one or the other of us and trying to play us off each other as it is. And sure, I can completely understand my kids complaining about how tough Mom is to deal with sometimes … I am often on the other side of her (irrational) wrath too! Yes, she can be strict and controlling and I’d likely give in a lot more. And my wife completely gets how much I can be embarrassing to our children in public. (It’s a hobby.)
Our allowing ourselves to get played off against each other, undermining each other’s authority? Would not have been in the kids’ best interests. Show your mother respect and then discuss the issues with her. In my case it is a teen yelling “Get out of my room and leave me alone!” [doorslam] to Mom but knowing that she has no choice but to have to talk about it tomorrow. “I won’t ever see you again!” is not a threat with any credence. To give a teen that power? Big mistake.
Kolak so far at least there is nothing stated by child or by father even alleging abuse or neglect. In the absence of such we can only take the reports at face value: she is a very strict and controlling mother with rules about curfew and who he sees and when and the kid is pushing back as teens are often wont to do. He does not enjoy being with her and being part of her life when he is. Simple as that as far as what is actually put out there. No different than many other teens who do not like going to Dad’s house because he is stricter, say lives out in farmland area, no “normal kid stuff” to do, has him checking on the chickens in the morning, only serves crappy healthy food, and they often argue. Too bad. You still have to spend the agreed upon time with him. At least until you are 18. Dad has every right to insist upon it and would be expected to go to court to make it happen if Mom did not support its happening.
Regarding the part I bolded I ask, what reports? Where did I or anyone else say there were allegations of abuse? And again, how are you able to know what the actual conversation was between child and parent that you claim took place?
There is nothing in this thread that supports anything you just posted. Seems to me you are conflating something unrelated with this story. If you are aware of any information ABOUT THIS SPECIFIC CASE, please share a link to it. So far nothing like that has been provided. All I have seen are your assertions without anything to back them up.
Wow. I may be wrong but you are realllllllly imposing some outside baggage on this particular story. There is nothing to indicate anything you just said here is even remotely related to what is going on.
She always wished she were British with that fake accent of hers, but nope she is all around American.
By the way I enjoy plenty of her music and admire the fact that she always had gravitas to push the envelope and be successful.
The age is close enough and my quip about her being British should be OBVIOUS to anyone who has ever heard of Madonna.
Whether she’s 57 or 37, I can’t imagine any teenage boy would not be embarrassed to be around her (as his mom) and deal with the circus. That’s not “ageist” or a personal attack against Madonna. I know that she has her zealous fans who think she’s some transcendent super entertainer and human being. I’m merely an uninterested observer. What does her shape matter in music? Because she’s always sold sex while managing to remain unsexy? Her musical output in recent years is very niche. She had a great peak as a pop star, though.
I would also say the same about a male version of Madonna, FWIW… though it would have a different dynamic with the teen son.
It’s hard to tell, but it appears to me from my memories and from the videos I’ve checked that Madonna kept her Detroit accent until a few years before she met Guy Ritchie. Her accent had gradually begun to sound more like a typical educated American one. Then before she even met Ritchie, her accent began to pick up some British characteristics. After they got divorced and she moved back to the U.S., it began to sound American again.
It’s impossible to be sure how much of this was her deliberate choice and how much was because she unconsciously picked up the accent. People differ about this. I spent three years living in the U.K. (from the age of 35 to 38) and have been back there for a number of vacations over the past twenty-five years, but I don’t think my accent sounds remotely British. Other people moving from the U.S. to the U.K. have gradually changed their accent for some reason.
Actually the outside baggage is not coming from me.
I have from the op’s link only this
And multiple other reports from a variety of articles quoting Ritchie and others that she is a very strict mother. And yes, imposes her interpretation of a healthy diet (macrobiotic) on him, not letting him have junk food, and apparently expected him to do some work while on tour with her. Not checking on chickens but apparently something that he did not enjoy doing. My impression is that she has been the prime custodial parent but I do not know that.
That is all we really have to go on. Others here seem intent on judging the case based on the fact that Madonna has had romantic relationships with younger men or unsubstantiated claims that the child has been allowed to drink since he was 13 or is upset over an alleged Instagram comment about his penis or superfluous and irrelevant other things they attach to the public personality.
But all we have is that: a 15 year old who apparently is not getting along with his reputably very strict mother and who would prefer to stay at Dad’s. Again no allegations of abuse or neglect. And father helping/encouraging the son given that the father’s lawyer is the one going to court in England to try to enforce a change to the NY court agreement such the child does not have go back to his mother.
And the op, with that to go on and nothing else, states that the mother “has lost her ****ing mind” because she is fighting that unilateral decision to change the agreement.
Pretty generic stuff. An established custody agreement, whatever it was, that included this holiday being at Mom’s, a teen having conflict with one parent, mother in this case, (for whatever reason) and the teen and other parent saying that therefore the child should not return to the parent as per the agreement.
Changes to the custody agreement can be made if all agree to them; if all parties do not then then outside parties need to get involved, be it mediators, arbitration, or the domestic courts.
Not returning a child to a custodial parent after a visitation is legally considered kidnapping even if the child says they prefer to be there. Divorced parents know this and they do not risk incurring “the wrath of the courts” unless they are very stupid. A custodial parent cannot impede established visitation by a non-custodial parent and even abusive parents have visitation rights (even if they need to be supervised by court order). Custodial interference is a big deal. And having done that weighs against you in the domestic court.
Changing an established custody agreement by way of court order can be done but it usually requires substantial cause. Indeed as a child gets older, especially 16 plus (this child is 15 and 4/12ths) their stated preference is increasingly taken into account by a court but in no state does the child just get to choose. The court decides based on their judgment of the teen’s best interests and if requesting a change the burden is, I believe, on those requesting the change to prove that the change is in the best interest of the child due to changes in circumstance.
Again, I am married and my current (fourth) teen is a 14 1/2 year old girl, less than a year younger than this kid. (You bet she has an early curfew and that we know who she is out with when and that there is hell to pay if she is not calling in to tell us where she is if she is not home when she is expected.) I can imagine being divorced however (married over thirty years, I cannot say I never have!) and I would be certain that my daughter would come back from mom’s at points having had a knock down drag out fight with yelling and crying by all involved saying that she never wants to see her again. They just had one two nights ago! (And all better now.) The stupid (but ego satisfying) response would be to feed into that and try to make it so that she would not have to go back to her mother for whatever we had agreed to as our custody arrangement. The smart move for my daughter’s sake would be to try to help that relationship become as strong as possible; not to undermine it.
They say Madonna has had 11 abortions. The last one between the births of Lourdes and Rocco. I’m all for choice but that sounds pretty twisted to me especially for someone who cannot claim ignorance nor lack of money for access to birth control.
“They say” is not proof.
What it comes down to, for some people, is the notion that because Madonna expresses her sexuality in ways they disapprove of (even if everything she does is entirely legal) she’s not fit to be a mother. How dare she lust after younger men! How dare she have an abortion!
You know what? Her sex life is no one’s business but hers and the parties immediately involved.
What is relevant is what sort of parent she is, how well she takes care of her children. Fact is, us bystanders reading the entertainment press know jack about that, too. Too many rumors, not enough facts.
They also say that Madonna was desperate to have a child just before becoming pregnant with Lourdes and was desperate to have a second child just before becoming pregnant with Rocco. She was so desperate, they say, that she never used birth control in her late thirties and early forties and would have been happy to become pregnant by any man she’d have sex with. The things that that set of “they” say thus contradict the things that the first set of “they” say. This means that we should ignore anything that we have no proof for other than “They say.”
I am divorced. I think your anticipation of how things will go down in an actual custody hearing where the “child” is almost 16 is seriously off base here. How custody is treated may vary, but in most of the US but a child that age is given a very large amount of agency by most Judges about with whom they want to spend their time regardless of what the separation document calls for. Do you really think a Judge is going to treat a near adult sized minor a few months shy of 16 the way they would treat grade school age children? Do you think you are going to be able to dictate to a 16 year old which parent they live with if they do not want to do so?
The bottom line is that if you are 15 and half you will pretty much be able to call your own tune as to which parent you wish to stay with. Madonna has zero chance of prevailing in this and is simply embarrassing herself and her son by pursuing this legally. You are not going to force a 15 or 16 year old to stay with you if they do not want to.