1 - Blaster Master (fluiddruid)
1 - zuma (peekercpa)
1 - WF Tomba (Nanook of the North Shore)
4 - fluiddruid (ShadowFacts, Mind Wanderer, WF Tomba, Blaster Master)
I’m still finishing my re-read/note-taking extravaganza (work has been busy–sorry), but I’d like to go ahead and get a vote on the table. If my vote lacks adequate reasons, please excuse me, I will be happy to provide more background later today (off work–woo!).
I’m really feeling the vote on fluiddruid. This is mainly because I feel like the fighting between her and MtS was fabricated,especially the bit about how if MtS was scum he was playing hamhandedly (which is somewhat hilarious for a swine, dontcha know). That seems to help set him up for his Detective claim, as well as attempt to deflect suspicion from MtS while at the same time seem to be attacking him somewhat, to gain townie cred if he did get killed.
The only real explanation provided against them being in collusion seems to be, “why would I do that? I wouldn’t do that. I knew you were going to think I was doing that.” To me, it seems like she was copping to looking suspicious as a pre-emptive strike of sorts, Explaining how the behavior was not actually scummy felt like part of the plan as well, a plan of not doing exactly what we would “expect” scum to do.
vote fluiddruid
Sorry for being quiet yesterday - I had a huge event at work to manage, but I will be back in it today and for the rest of the week.
How convenient that you leave out the most important part of my argument against you… that Mad was the one who first pointed his finger at you over the Mod-kill thing on Day one. To anyone watching, please go back and compare the points she’s arguing against to the ones and see that she didn’t address that one.
Beyond that, you’re sitting here nitpicking each point I put forth rather than looking at the big picture. Your argument, as far as I can tell is, “I can’t be scum, because they would they sacrifice the most important role to make me look good.” Each of those points is something that pokes a hole in that argument, any one by itself is insignificant, but the point is, if that’s your defense, it’s flimsy. I don’t think the point was to make you look good at Mad’s expense, I think it was to generate a little bit of in-fighting and, at worst, make Mad look better.
For instance, you DID assume that Lead Assassin was a Godfather role, I sure as hell didn’t catch the part that sachetorte bolded until just now, and I’m guessing you didn’t either or you would have pointed it out rather than admitting you assumed it as well. My point was, since neither of us seemed to have that confirmation, then it’s not logical to conclude that Lead Assassin is necessarily the God Father. It could have been some sort of hierarchy like God Father, Lead Assassin, Assassin, Thug, or any other imaginable scenario. Without that confirmation, we had no reason to make the assumption that he was necessarily the most important role. The fact that you DID make this assumption is, at best, poor logic as a townie and, at worst, a good example of perfect information syndrome.
Also, I never said YOU were the most important player for the scum. But you immediately assumed that Mad HAS to be because he’s the Lead Assassin. Not only is this bad because it’s an assumption based on another assumption, but even if it weren’t, it’s a testament to valuing a role at the exclusion of the individual in that role. For instance, the Doctor is generally a very powerful and valuable pro-town role but, and no offense to Queen, when it is not played near optimally, it is no longer nearly as valuable of a role.
Finally, as I said before, I think the “risk” was to seperate you and Mad. I think it’s important, especially when it’s been established that there’s at least one experienced player amongst the scum, for them to make an attempt to seperate themselves such that when one goes down, the other doesn’t immediately follow. I think you two in fighting was an attempt to look like you’re arguing without actually gathering votes because, as I said, neither of you had more than a very shallow case against the other. I think, at worst, you all hoped that you would take the fall and make him look good. I think it backfired on you, because the town started to buy into your case against Mad and he started gathering votes.
You’re arguing a strawman that’s not what I said AT ALL. Look at the points I made yesterday about why I found your vote switch suspicious and then combine that with the fact that Mad turn up scum. It’s set up just fine so you could take a large amount of credit for Mad’s lynch even though you didn’t have your final vote on him. It’s ALSO set up so if pedescribe turns up town, NAF gets the blame for his lynch instead of you. Your vote switch WAS instrumental, because it turned a 5-2 runaway wagon into a 4-3 tight race.
Yesterday, I wasn’t sure if Mad was a pro-town power role or scum, but I made a lot of these points in my vote for you then, and I think they’re even more valid in light of Mad’s unveiling.
Wow, could you make more of an OMGUS vote? You disagree with why I think you’re scum, so you put a vote on me? Just… wow.
Fair enough. I agree with the point that I think Queen only really outted herself to an experienced scum; in fact, I believe that was something I mentioned in one of my first posts Yesterday. The thing is, I don’t think it’s really a relevant point anymore because we’ve found one experienced scum in Mad. Now, that’s not to say there aren’t more experienced scum, but all that information really pointed to was that there was at least one, so I don’t think it’s logically valid to really use it to indict or exonerate anyone anymore.
I think we can’t assume too much about a “Lead Assassin” role. I think we can assume its a power roe for scum, but beyond that who knows. So I agree with Blaster Master on that.
MadTheSwine was already on the chopping block early on. He was going to be under a lot of heat no matter what, so he would be one of the safe scum to vote against because you gain cred while not hurting the mafia any further.
NAF voted for pedescribe before you, and you replied with this:
You then proceeded to go through all this posts, establishing conclusively that pedescribe didn’t seem that scummy, then:
You had no comment on pedescribe’s lurkerdom before, and now all of a sudden its enough to switch vote to pedescribe.
I think all the evidence adds up, and the votes against fluiddruid are justified.
Actually, I just noticed that fluiddruid SPECIFICALLY stated that pedescribe was not a lurker in the first post, and then voted for pedescribe based on lurkerdom in the second. Thats even worse than I thought on first reading.
OK a couple of quick thoughts as I try to continue to wrap my head around this game.
I think that the fast bandwagon built against pedescribe (which I aknowledge starting and don’t regret, I think we got some good info out of it) indicated that pede is indeed town. We need a careful close examination of that bandwagon. If we look there I am sure we will net ourselves scum.
BlaM vs fluid. I am inclined to believe both are town. Fluid’s arguments against BlaM mostly boil down to “BlaM thinks I am scum” which is a bad argument, but frankly one I have seen town make over and over again. Scum make it too, but I think the things that are pinging people about fluid are indicators of a lack of knowledge about who has what role, and is more an idicator of town than it is scum. Especially since this sort of behavior almost always gets a person lynched, I am disinclined to believe she is scum. I am not certain, but I won’t vote for her today.
I am fairly certain that BlaM is not scum, he hasn’t been acting like scum and all his actions lead back to pro-town motivations. He has made some bad assumptions, but being wrong does not mean you are scum.
I should have a little bit of time today, so I will go back and see what I can see in the bandwagon against pede. We need to look for people who voted for him, not for bad reasoning (fluid) but for no reason, or for reasons that are a parrot of other people’s reasoning.
I’ve already explained this point at least once. NAF1138 claimed that pedescribe lurked both days. I reviewed only Day 1 and concluded he wasn’t lurking on that day, so I dismissed NAF1138’s vote on the grounds that it was partially incorrect. However, I did point out that he had been quiet on Day 2, and that’s why I prodded him.
I’m not sure when the day ends (doesn’t seem to be in the Dawn post… I’m sure I’m missing something?) but it looks like I’m a goner. The Day 3 curse strikes again.
Anyhow, we’re still getting hardly any posting from the majority of players - so I’m going to go ahead and post some thoughts here for tomorrow. Good luck town, you’re going to need it.
Reading as scummier:
Blaster Master. I could be wrong on this one as NAF said, I tend to be a bit sensitive and perhaps we are just miscommunicating. I just don’t think he’s acting as reasonably has he did in my game when he was Town.
bufftabby - Way too quiet for an experienced player and contributing virtually nothing new. Not typical behavior. Too clean. Speak up.
Mind Wanderer - for the reasons outlined above, but I’m willing to admit the parroting could be newbie behavior. I’ll say he’s the least scummy of the three.
I don’t think we’ll see several scum votes for me so these are probably not all correct, but just the vibe I’ve gotten.
Neutral on:
NAF1138. He’s been quiet and not as aggressive as usual, which tends to make me suspicious, but I haven’t seen him outright lie or manipulate anything. I’ll say this, if Blaster Master turns up town, I’ll bet he’s scum, and vice versa.
zuma, who needs to speak the heck up
Reading as townier:
Nanook of the North Shore
WF Tomba, though I think his arguments have been poor, I don’t see it as scummy
peekercpa
Shadow Facts
Ice Cream Man
pedescribe. No new info, I tend to think it was a coincidence that got him his vote from me, he’s acted very Townie since then.
A few additions to the above.
Town, we’re in trouble. Even though we’ve killed the Lead Assassin, when I turn up Town it’s going to be difficult to decide what to do as the Detective is dead and we don’t have a lot of good suspects. I don’t think that the scum players are necessarily piling on me - there’s likely to be 1, maybe 2 scum votes in there, but several of them (likely Shadow Facts and WF Tomba, in my opinion) are simply townies lynching townies.
I am getting the vibe that our experienced players are more scum than not, which is what’s driving the days to be so quiet. New players - this game has been unusually quiet. This means something and we need to change it, now or Town is doomed. All Townies need to be driving people to post more, and not just more, but substantially - not just repeating what’s been said. Hold people accountable to their decisions, but even moreso hold them accountable to their reasoning.
After I’m dead, please take a good long look at our frequent players. They should be driving more discussion for the game but it’s just not happening. Please look at Blaster Master, bufftabby, and NAF1138. Don’t follow them blindly but they should be able to post some meaningful analysis. Check their facts.
Is this a mistake or are you claiming something? The detective, assuming there is one, is not dead. Menocchio was the Doctor.
I also disagree about things being all that bad. Let us assume for the moment that you do end up lynched and are town. That will almost certainly lead us to at least one scum. There’s almost certainly still a group of masons out there, and very likely a Detective as well. I agree that things have certainly been far quieter than normal, but I think the large number of new players has a lot to do with it. (Though some of the new players have been pretty chatty, like peeker.) I’m still sure there’s no more than 3 more scum. If we can get one from your lynch, either from you being scum or from the fall out if you’re town, and say one from a Detective, we’ll have a large pool of cofirmed town with which to try and find the last scum.
EBWOP: Er, not Menocchio, Queen of Town. My mistake.
Please to note, end of tax season. I work with people who get very cranky around tax time. I will be back to my old self shortly.
First of all, fluiddruid, be you town or scum, I don’t think providing lists of towniness and/or scumminess are helpful and, in fact, can be hurtful because, if you’re town, it helps broadcast to the scum how well they are or aren’t doing. That said, I wouldn’t have a problem with such a list IFF it included reasons, but most of your townie list is just names with no reasons. If you’re town, and any of them are scum, you’ve told them “hey, I’m not suspicious of you” and if you’re scum, then it’s a nice snuggle to any of those townies without having to provide a reason.
But, FWIW…
Yes, I was town in that game, but I was also a beat cop, a role that I’d be surprised to see in this game. Besides, as has been said, sometimes comparison to previous play styles is valid, but then a smart player would need only analyze his previous town play and play that way as scum or town in the future.
Instead, I try to take a different approach to my play in each game, some of it has to do with varying roles, some of it has to do with learning new aspects to the game, some of it has to do with variety, and some of it has to do with mood. As such, I’m not sure that comparing abstract things like “reasonable”, “erratic”, “aggressive”, etc. make a lot of sense. Instead, the parts I try to take into account is style, as in “analytical”, “instinctual”, “mathematical”, etc.
WHOA! A large part of my reasoning for voting for you Yesterday was your insistence that his post WASN’T a coincidence. The reason I think he’s likely town was because of how quickly the momementum built against him with the hindsight that Mad is scum and the fact that I think you and Mad are both scum. You specifically were part of that momentum and you said a few posts up that you don’t regret your vote, so I’m wondering what exactly changed your mind that made you think that, what was once a damning point of evidence, is not just a coincidence, and he went from scummiest to towniest.
Nook, I’m sorry. I accidentally added Shadow’s numbers to yours. I should not have included you in my list.
I can’t say I have no suspicions of you at all–I didn’t like the way you tried to save Mad–but of course, when you did that I was already thinking of both of you as Mafia.
I’m going to keep applying my formula and privately tracking the results to see if I can see emerging alliances.
Meanwhile, my chief suspects remain as follows:
fluiddruid
zuma
peekercpa
Still catching up after an insane day at work yesterday, so I am going to have to take bite-sized chunks today…
I disagree that we are in trouble. We have 12 players alive and 1 scum dead, which probably means there are 3 scum left. That puts us at the same ratio of town to scum as we were at the start of the game (4:1), but with significant additional information from 2+ Days of postings. Losing the Doctor was a bummer, of course, but I bet losing the Lead Assassin was, too, so I’d call that a wash.
(BTW, I guess **Mad’s **claim really fooled you if you think the Detective is dead) 
Eagh, got Detective confused with Doctor. kicks self
True. We’ll see. I just think that the way that the game has been going hasn’t been very productive for Town. Let’s face it, we got pretty lucky with MTS giving us a tell.
You are obviously free to vote for whomever you please, but I definitely do not think it is fair to say “I think the things that are pinging people about fluid are indicators of a lack of knowledge about who has what role.” At the very least, that’s not what’s pinging me about fluid, as far as I know (Maybe I’m not understanding you - what indicators do you mean?). Please review my posts #633 and #645 to read what I found suspicious about her activities yesterDay. Blaster and fluid have been trading arguments about the timing and number of votes for whom (which is important), but you have to take into consideration her stated reason for changing her vote to pedescribe as well as the timing. Since you do not find her scummy, I’d be interested in hearing from you about her voting yesterDay and your response to my case against her.
Ok, this is freakin hilarious. What is your definition of “experienced”, so that it somehow fits me but not zuma? FWIW I don’t really have a read on zuma right now, so that’s not what this is about. I do find it hilarious that you’re referring to me as experienced, when I’ve only played one other game (recruiting) and watched one game(you-solve-it), neither of which seems to have operated in quite a standard fashion (this is what I gathered from players’ comments, anyway). Not only that but, before the last game started, I PMed you to say that I had no idea what the hell was going on, so it’s not like you don’t know that. I’d also like to know how not contributing anything new is typical behavior for me. Pretty sure toward the end of the only other game I’ve played, I was under suspicion partially for my lack of intelligent insight, and my tendency to agree with other players. I’m thinking this is a last ditch effort to find somebody, anybody to replace you on the lynch. And hey, now I’ve contributed something new.
FWIW, I think this is a crock of shit. Voting for a scum player makes them feel they’re doing bad, too.
Many of them are provided upthread, but like I said, it’s a vibe list. I won’t have the opportunity to fill it out later.
I don’t know why it is so difficult to understand that one can change one’s mind based on new information. I seem to have to continue reiterating this point over and over with you, and it sounds as if you’re being deliberately obtuse, one of the reasons I’m voting for you.
Funnily enough, pedescribe has kept posting since Yesterday.