Mafia: The Mob is Recruiting [Game Finished]

The Game Room
1221

[QUOTE=NAF1138]
ahem
[/QUOTE]

I saw that. What I’m curious about is that inside the context of your thought that hotflungwok was who you thought the Vig was. Inside of that context, I would have expected him not to target anyone. Further, hotflungwok had his vote on you, him targetting you would have probably led the scum to believe that the Vig was one of those on your wagon, which would have made him a lot easier to spot. Obviously, you disagree with that because you’re surprised the he didn’t kill you, and I want to know why.

But to address that point specifically, without regard to whom the Vig was (since we were obviously wrong), it wouldn’t make sense for the Vig to kill someone who is already highly suspected and will likely be lynched the next Day anyway. I would much more expect the Vig to target someone he suspects, but can’t make a solid enough case against, or at least someone that wouldn’t blatantly give him away.

1222

[QUOTE=Blaster Master]

But to address that point specifically, without regard to whom the Vig was (since we were obviously wrong), it wouldn’t make sense for the Vig to kill someone who is already highly suspected and will likely be lynched the next Day anyway. I would much more expect the Vig to target someone he suspects, but can’t make a solid enough case against, or at least someone that wouldn’t blatantly give him away.
[/QUOTE]

Why not? Isn’t that part of what the vig is there for? And after yesterDay I felt like hotflungwok might have felt I slipped the noose too easily and might not get lynched. Add that in addition to all the stuff about my kill list and, like I said, that would have been my play.

1223

[QUOTE=NAF1138]
might have felt I slipped the noose too easily and might not get lynched.
[/QUOTE]

NETA:That is a bit hard to parse.

Might not get lynched the next Day.

1224

[QUOTE=NAF1138]
Ouch. And after I said all those nice things about you!
[/QUOTE]

Okay, perhaps I was a little harsh there because the implication that you were completely wrong was not intentional. Primarily, my point was that if there was something specific about which you were right, that may be a methodology the Boss would employ to discredit it. But to reiterate, I don’t think that’s the case because I think you were already recruited on Night 2 and, even if you weren’t, I’d be hard pressed to believe the Boss would be willing to take even such a bold risk expecting you to get lynched, because that little amount of information, whatever it may or may not have been, would be difficult to believe it would be worth giving up a two person swing (that another recruit would have been, along with what would have been a townie lynch).

1225

[QUOTE=NAF1138]
Why not? Isn’t that part of what the vig is there for? And after yesterDay I felt like hotflungwok might have felt I slipped the noose too easily and might not get lynched. Add that in addition to all the stuff about my kill list and, like I said, that would have been my play.
[/QUOTE]

Here’s the point. He’d seemed to admit that he was responsible for OAOW’s death. The Vig had been berated on Day Two by the town believing he had done it. Thus, when he seemed to confess that he made no attempt on the second Night, I would have thought he’d decided it was not in the town’s best interest to carry on Vigging people. Do you really think he would have Vigged you, after that, and my discussion with him, especially considering that his vote for you was not only less than enthralled, but also an arrow pointed back to him (or at least one of those of us voting for you). That is, he seemed for vote for you, not because he necessarily thought you were scummy, but because he didn’t get the other option of OCS. I just can’t see that as anything other than a high probability that he likely wouldn’t have killed anyone last Night and that, if he did, his suspicions were obviously elsewhere and he was unwilling to express them so that the kill wouldn’t be traced back to him.

1226

Not that anyone especially cares, but I just don’t see the case against NAF based on his comment about being alive. If I had received a vote from the person I thought was the Vig, and then escaped lynching, I would be concerned for my life as well. Now, I don’t think this exonerates him, but I don’t see how it condemns him either.

1227

[QUOTE=bufftabby]
Not that anyone especially cares, but I just don’t see the case against NAF based on his comment about being alive. If I had received a vote from the person I thought was the Vig, and then escaped lynching, I would be concerned for my life as well. Now, I don’t think this exonerates him, but I don’t see how it condemns him either.
[/QUOTE]

This is not the entirety of the case. Please go back to yesterday and review the posts immediately prior to and including my vote for him.

As for this, it’s not the point that he was voted for by the person who he thought was the Vig. It’s that, just because someone is the Vig and votes for you, it doesn’t mean your life is necessarily in any danger. Considering he thought hotflungwok was the Vig, like I did, then he would have also interpretted those posts to mean he likely wasn’t going to kill. Combine that with hotflungwok’s less than enthralled vote, and I just can’t see him killing NAF.
Further, NAF’s initial reasoning had nothing to do with hotflungwok and was entirely about his list and how he was on it. That reasoning was stated today AFTER he had already confirmed he thought hotflungwok was the Vig yesterday. Leaving out the context of who he thought the Vig was, especially after it’s in the open, makes it seem much more like post hoc reasoning, otherwise he could have put more specifics behind his reasoning rather than remaining vaguely general when it just doesn’t hold up under the scrutiny of the context of the individual that he thought was the Vig.

1228

Thank you for clarifying, BlaM. I see where you are coming from now. Not sure yet if I quite think it’s scummy or not, but I do see the basis of your argument now. It’s not as though I haven’t been paying attention; some of the subtler things go over this newb’s head.

1229

[QUOTE=Blaster Master]
Here’s the point. He’d seemed to admit that he was responsible for OAOW’s death. The Vig had been berated on Day Two by the town believing he had done it. Thus, when he seemed to confess that he made no attempt on the second Night, I would have thought he’d decided it was not in the town’s best interest to carry on Vigging people. Do you really think he would have Vigged you, after that, and my discussion with him, especially considering that his vote for you was not only less than enthralled, but also an arrow pointed back to him (or at least one of those of us voting for you). That is, he seemed for vote for you, not because he necessarily thought you were scummy, but because he didn’t get the other option of OCS. I just can’t see that as anything other than a high probability that he likely wouldn’t have killed anyone last Night and that, if he did, his suspicions were obviously elsewhere and he was unwilling to express them so that the kill wouldn’t be traced back to him.
[/QUOTE]

Well sure, when you put it like that it sounds all logical. It doesn’t change the fact that I expected there was a good chance I would wake up dead.

1230

[QUOTE=Blaster Master]

Further, NAF’s initial reasoning had nothing to do with hotflungwok and was entirely about his list and how he was on it. That reasoning was stated today AFTER he had already confirmed he thought hotflungwok was the Vig yesterday. Leaving out the context of who he thought the Vig was, especially after it’s in the open, makes it seem much more like post hoc reasoning, otherwise he could have put more specifics behind his reasoning rather than remaining vaguely general when it just doesn’t hold up under the scrutiny of the context of the individual that he thought was the Vig.
[/QUOTE]

Ok, serioulsly WTF BlaM? Do you even believe what you are saying anymore or are you just trying to win the argument? Because I am telling you, no matter how hard you try to win, you are going to lose the NAF is scum game. I didn’t menton hotflungwok before, because how the fuck was it relevant? I mentioned how he fit in because you asked me to.

I thought I was probably dead because it is what I would have done. If I look at it from hotflungwoks perspective, it is still what I would have done. If I look at it from anyone in the game’s perspective, barring a couple of players…it is STILL what I would have done. Because I DO think that the people on that list need to die. And I AM on that list. I REALLY should be killed first. And not killing me just continues discussions like this that are preventing the town from doing anything usefull, like finding the boss.

Hell, you already said you don’t think I am the boss. Wouldn’t you say it is more important to try to lynch him toDay than to try to lynch someone who was a recruit? I am not saying don’t lynch me because of that, but don’t you think that maybe, just maybe, trying to figure out who the boss is would be a better use of our time toDay?

I am still waiting for someone (other than BlaM who I don’t actually belive is interested in anything other than being right) to actually present a case against me. BlaM you have tunnel vission and I would say that this back and forth between us is bad for the town at best.

1231

[QUOTE=bufftabby]
Thank you for clarifying, BlaM. I see where you are coming from now. Not sure yet if I quite think it’s scummy or not, but I do see the basis of your argument now. It’s not as though I haven’t been paying attention; some of the subtler things go over this newb’s head.
[/QUOTE]

Like the fact that the argument he presented was bullshit.

hmm…noob or…

what the hell, worst you can do is lynch me. I want to see bufftabby talk more.

unvote Darth

Vote bufftabby

I don’t like the self deprication. I don’t like the “not sure if it is scummy, but I agree” bit. Don’t like a lot of things about this or the post that initated it.

More to come after I do some further research.

More in another post.

1232

dammit try this again:

unvote Darth

vote bufftabby

1233

vote NAF1138

His behavior really does seem different from when I saw him as town, and his self-defense reads as weak.

1234

Yesterday, I nearly put my vote on NAF1138. My reasoning behind such a vote would have been :[ul][li]NAF is advocating killing people whether they are Town or Scum because they would make valuable recruits for the Mafia.[/li][li]Naf’s name is on that list, therefore he is advocating his own death.[/li][li]Let’s see how sincere he actually is.[/ul]However, he gave me reason to believe in the last hours of the Day that he was sincere; so I voted for Dotchan instead because I thought she might have been scummy.[/li]
I therefore doubt that as at Day 3 NAF was scum.

In the future I will vote NAF if I think that he has changed sides, or if the alternative is to lynch another player who I think is not scum at that point (to the degree of certainty I had about NAF in Day 3). For the moment, I will not vote, but continue to hunt elsewhere.

1235

[QUOTE=NAF1138]
Ok, serioulsly WTF BlaM? Do you even believe what you are saying anymore or are you just trying to win the argument? Because I am telling you, no matter how hard you try to win, you are going to lose the NAF is scum game. I didn’t menton hotflungwok before, because how the fuck was it relevant? I mentioned how he fit in because you asked me to.

I thought I was probably dead because it is what I would have done. If I look at it from hotflungwoks perspective, it is still what I would have done. If I look at it from anyone in the game’s perspective, barring a couple of players…it is STILL what I would have done. Because I DO think that the people on that list need to die. And I AM on that list. I REALLY should be killed first. And not killing me just continues discussions like this that are preventing the town from doing anything usefull, like finding the boss.

Hell, you already said you don’t think I am the boss. Wouldn’t you say it is more important to try to lynch him toDay than to try to lynch someone who was a recruit? I am not saying don’t lynch me because of that, but don’t you think that maybe, just maybe, trying to figure out who the boss is would be a better use of our time toDay?

I am still waiting for someone (other than BlaM who I don’t actually belive is interested in anything other than being right) to actually present a case against me. BlaM you have tunnel vission and I would say that this back and forth between us is bad for the town at best.
[/QUOTE]

Huh? I was asking you to clarify because when you gave your reasons for why you thought you’d be Vigged, it blatantly contradicted my assessment of what hotflungwok would have done. When I ask you to explain, you keep saying “that’s what I would have done”. I get that, but I also have enough respect for you to believe, if you’d thought you had a bead on another player’s role, you’d take that into account when analyzing the actions that role would have taken.

You said you thought the Vig would have killed you. You said you thought hotflungwok was the Vig. You said why, if you were the Vig you would have killed yourself. You said you would have done the same thing in his shoes. That’s NOT what I’m asking. I’m asking you what about hotflungwok specifically led you to believe he was going to Vig you. I’m not asking you for your reasoning, I’m asking you for what you thought his reasoning was. IMO, I thought it was clear that, if he were the Vig, he wouldn’t have targetted anyone, and if he did, it probably wouldn’t have been you.

I respect your skill enough to not believe that you’d believe everyone else has the same reasoning patterns that you do, particularly when they expressly contradict the patterns that individual has expressed. I also respect your skill enough to surmise that you would consider his motivations and not be “surprised” when his actions fit his apparent motivations. I just can’t see you not taking that into account when explaining why you were surprised. It just doesn’t seem like you to overlook something like that.
As for finding the Boss, fair enough. As I said, I don’t think you’re the boss. When I find someone else of whom I’m suspicious and I think is a likely boss candidate, I’ll consider switching my vote.

1236

[QUOTE=NAF1138]
I am still waiting for someone (other than BlaM who I don’t actually belive is interested in anything other than being right) to actually present a case against me. BlaM you have tunnel vission and I would say that this back and forth between us is bad for the town at best.
[/QUOTE]

I agree the back and forth is bad for town, but you have completely ignored my post 1216. Not that it is some super-duper revelation that completely damns you but I made my own case and it hasn’t been acknowledged and then you ask for someone else to make a case.

1237

[QUOTE=MHaye]
Yesterday, I nearly put my vote on NAF1138. My reasoning behind such a vote would have been :[ul][li]NAF is advocating killing people whether they are Town or Scum because they would make valuable recruits for the Mafia.[/li][li]Naf’s name is on that list, therefore he is advocating his own death.[/li][li]Let’s see how sincere he actually is.[/ul]However, he gave me reason to believe in the last hours of the Day that he was sincere; so I voted for Dotchan instead because I thought she might have been scummy.[/li]
I therefore doubt that as at Day 3 NAF was scum.

In the future I will vote NAF if I think that he has changed sides, or if the alternative is to lynch another player who I think is not scum at that point (to the degree of certainty I had about NAF in Day 3). For the moment, I will not vote, but continue to hunt elsewhere.
[/QUOTE]

To be fair, since it’s entirely possible that I’m stuck in a circle of confirmation bias, can you point out what posts made you change your mind about his sincerity?

1238

[QUOTE=USCDiver]
I agree the back and forth is bad for town, but you have completely ignored my post 1216. Not that it is some super-duper revelation that completely damns you but I made my own case and it hasn’t been acknowledged and then you ask for someone else to make a case.
[/QUOTE]

Your right, you did post that, and I meant to respond to it. Sorry. The thing is, that isn’t a case for me being scum or being recruited. That is a case for me potentially being vanilla and thus a better lynch pick than someone who isn’t potentially vanilla.

The whole, the vig must have killed Night one bit, it was safer to assume more mafia than less. And the mafia not recruiting Night 1 is so far beyond stupid it is beyond my comprehension. The only reason I could think they would do it would be to fuck with the town because they can. And that, frankly, is a bad reason since they didn’t gain anything out of fucking with us, and lost a fair bit.

1239

[QUOTE=Blaster Master]
Also, fluiddruid, not to be petty, but you do mean 11AM CDT not CST, right? So, it’s still 1 hour behind EDT?
[/QUOTE]
Boo! Minus fifty points!!

Yes, of course you are correct. :slight_smile:

1240

NAF1138:

I am happy to explain.

Self-deprecation: I’ve said a number of things and asked a number of questions that received no response. I haven’t felt like anyone gives a shit what I think. See my prior post where I express my frustration that no one cared about my post-count results, to which only MHaye replied.

“Not sure if this is scummy, but I agree” isn’t what I said. I said “I see where you are coming from”. As a newb, I’m trying not to reference that fact much, but I do ask questions that are based on that, as I’m trying to understand the intricacies of play. Understanding his position is not agreeing with it; it is comprehending the logic. You even stated something along the lines of “well, when you put it like that, it sounds all logical” or somesuch.

I think voting for me based on that is a bit silly. You’ll also note that I’ve already voted so far, and it wasn’t for you. In fact, my vote sits on Darth Sensitive, as did yours before you unvoted me. So obviously we agree on something, eh?