Mafia: The Mob is Recruiting [Game Finished]

The Game Room
1741

[QUOTE=Millit the Frail]
If you think that Darth and I are both prime Boss candidates, why haven’t you investigated us? I call BS. I even said that someone should investigate me yesterday. I was being overreactive, but hey–I was for real. I want to know the logic behind your choices, because you’re talking a big game like you’re really intent on finding the Boss, and then you haven’t investigated us who are your prime suspects. What gives? Are you…lying?

And of course you’re not allowed to post the PMs–no one gets to show that kind of role confirmation. Hey, fluid, if he gets to do this, can I post my PM that you sent me that told me my role? Not gonna happen, and you know that.
[/QUOTE]

First of all, I didn’t think either of you was a Boss candidate yesterday, because the logic depends entirely on Drain Bead’s actions today. Second of all, my logic as investigator is not to investigate people that are already under the scrutiny of the town, and this is logic I explicitly explained in my PMs I sent outlining my choices.

For instance, let’s say I investigate someone that has suspicion, if they come up town, they’ll probably still get votes ANYWAY and I will have a hard time turning suspicion away without appealing to my extra knowledge. Chances are, they’ll have to claim, or the logic will either be there or not. Meanwhile, if I investigate people under little suspicion, if they come up town, I don’t have to breadcrumb anything, and if they come up scum, I can go back, put together the case, and introduce it. All the while, I’m not going to have to appeal to my extra information to get a lynch.

This is exactly why I DIDN’T investigate NAF even after his lynch barely missed, because I felt I already had a good case against him. If I’d investigated him and he’d come up town, I would have had to explain why I was suddenly not suspicious of him (which would appeal to extra knowledge over Night, which leads to looking like an investigative role), or I would have found out he was scum anyway, which wouldn’t have helped my case in any way.

Instead, I prefer to use investigations to follow up on hunches that I cannot substantiate, so I can determine if they’re worth following up or not. And the reason I wanted to post my PMs was because it would succintly outline my reasoning in the context of the Day they were made. Still, of course, they could be faked, so you all would have to take them with a grain of salt, otherwise, I can just sort of paraphrase. Thus, it’s not necessarily outside the spirit of the game to post them since it would be only information sent from me to our illustrious mod.

1742

[QUOTE=Santo Rugger]
Pleo said he PUT FAITH IN Hal. I don’t know how a Bishop claim could be more clear. And why didn’t you claim before the weekend, as soon as the charge was levied against you. It could have bypassed a lot of needless bullshit. Unless that’s what you’re hoping for?
[/QUOTE]

Because I didn’t think my claim would lend any credence to my claim, and I was HOPING to leave the possibility that I might be the Bishop or a Priest in the minds of scum so they wouldn’t recruit me. I still don’t see how my claim “bypasse[s] needless bullshit”, because it just draws attention BACK onto me. Instead of looking for the Boss, we’ve circle jerked ourselves with Drain Bead’s double distraction plan, first with me, then with Pleonast.

Bottom line, even if I do survive that Day, you still know that between me and Drain Bead, at least one of us is scum, and even if you DO lynch her, there’s no guarantee I won’t be recruited Tonight.
As for the confirmation, you’re reading into it with circular reasoning. You’re going, “If he were the Bishop, this would confirm him, therefore he’s the Bishop”. All that is clear is that the word choice was deliberate. What if he were scum when he stated that? Why wouldn’t he have deliberately put crumbs in to point back? Using that, he could justify that he was some sort of investigative role and he god a pro-town response. Using that, he could justify that he was the Bishop, or possibly even a Priest. The only thing it really wouldn’t have allowed for is Mason or Doc.

If ANYTHING, from previous games we’ve learned that deliberate word choice is more often the result of scum scouring over their posts. If you can explain to me how that couldn’t possibly be scum deliberately planting a crumb for later, then I might believe you. Besides, who’s to know he didn’t plant other crumbs for other roles that went unnoticed until now, and just didn’t bring them up because he didn’t need to?

And even if we DO believe him, that he at least was the Bishop, WHY do you assume he is STILL trustable now? I’m not the only one who thought he was a likely Bishop candidate before **Drain Bead ** said that was her read. Why do you think the scum wouldn’t have figured it out he was probably lying?

1743

[QUOTE=Menocchio]
I can’t believe that Blaster is seriously trying to get us to doubt the Hal crumb. I’ve been at Pleo’s throat this entire game and even I think it’s blatantly obvious in retrospect.

If this is a false breadcrumb, then Pleo would have had to have grabbed both Hal and the *real *bishop. And I doubt he could have done that.

I do wish the “I have a secret” thing was handled differently, but Drain did broadcast that she knew something that it wasn’t necessarily in the town’s best interest to reveal, which is a fair description of Pleo’s deception, so she obviously was on to something.
[/QUOTE]

You’re missing my point entirely. Yes, I don’t think it confirms him. The logic just isn’t there. AT BEST, it means he WAS the Bishop on that Day IF we believe Drain Bead. But, for the sake of argument,I’ll put that aside for now and suppose he was the Bishop when he made that claim. Let’s consider a couple of different scenarios

One being that Drain Bead was recruited. Depending on when she was recruited, unless it was last Night, she easily could have told the scum he was the Bishop and they could have Capo’d him.

Another being that, regardless of whether Drain Bead was recruited or not, THEY may have seen the breadcrumb, or had reason to believe he was lying. If I can figure it out, it’s safe to assume the scum probably could have as well. Don’t forget, that they only lose their Capo IF they successfully recruit, so attempting a Capo on someone that might be a Priest doesn’t cost them that, but they’d have had a DAMN good chance of Capoing the Bishop, Police Chief, or a Beat Cop. That sounds like a reasonable risk to me.

You HAVE to remember that, with recruiting, just because someone was trustable Yesterday doesn’t mean they’re trustable Today; and the more Nights intervening, the more useless that trustability becomes.

So, sure, buy the crumb, fine. I don’t, but I’m willing to concede to that ghastly logic, if you can give me good reason why, if multiple townies can see through it, why the scum wouldn’t have, and thus possibly recruited him.

1744

[QUOTE=Blaster Master]
Another being that, regardless of whether Drain Bead was recruited or not, THEY may have seen the breadcrumb, or had reason to believe he was lying. If I can figure it out, it’s safe to assume the scum probably could have as well. Don’t forget, that they only lose their Capo IF they successfully recruit, so attempting a Capo on someone that might be a Priest doesn’t cost them that, but they’d have had a DAMN good chance of Capoing the Bishop, Police Chief, or a Beat Cop. That sounds like a reasonable risk to me.
[/QUOTE]
BlaM, I’m sorry but you are in error.

If the Boss offered the Capo position to a Priest or Vigilante, the offer is refused, and this counts as the use of the power by the Boss.

(Emplhasis mine.)

If the Capo recruitment is blocked by protective night roles it’s not counted as used, but i it fails because of the innate non-recruitability of the role it is lost.

You might want to reassess the risk in that light.

1745

[QUOTE=MHaye]
BlaM, I’m sorry but you are in error.

If the Boss offered the Capo position to a Priest or Vigilante, the offer is refused, and this counts as the use of the power by the Boss.(Emplhasis mine.)

If the Capo recruitment is blocked by protective night roles it’s not counted as used, but i it fails because of the innate non-recruitability of the role it is lost.

You might want to reassess the risk in that light.
[/QUOTE]

Fair enough, I missed that when I read the rules. Still, it has zero bearing on my first scenario, where Drain Bead was recruited, since they’d be sure, and this is actually the one I’m more inclined to think is the case considering I know that she was.

As for the second, I was reasonably sure he was the Bishop, or at least something other than a Priest, but it’s impossible to tell how sure the scum would have been. I don’t think it’s completely beyond reason that they may have taken a risk. If they pieced it together like I did then, to the town, he was reasonably close to confirmed as Priest, so recruiting him would have been quite the coup. So, decide for yourself, that is quite a risk, but it’s quite a reward too.

1746

[Quote=hawkeyeop]
I did start a case against Buffy and plan on elaborating on it today.
[/quote]

And I suppose you plan on addressing the fact (which I already brought up) that a piece of your “case” against me is factually inaccurate? I never based my votes on what you are claiming I did. And I have expressed my own opinions, not just echoed others. That pretty much eliminates every bit of “evidence” that you have presented thus far.

1747

Blaster Master (11): Drain Bead*, (Koldanar), Hockey Monkey, (OneCentStamp), bufftabby, sinjin, Hal Briston, (HazelNutCoffee), dotchan II, Millit the Frail, USCDiver, MHaye, Menocchio, Hotflungwok
Darth Sensitive (5): (Pleonast), Santo Rugger, HazelNutCoffee, OneCentStamp, Koldanar, Pleonast
Pleonast (0): (Menocchio), (Darth Sensitive)
Millit the Frail (1): Blaster Master
bufftabby (1): Hawkeyeop
Menocchio (0): (Pleonast)
Drain Bead (0): (Drain Bead)

No current vote:

Darth Sensitive

The day ends on Tuesday, March 25 at 11am CST.

1748

Finally caught up reading.

I don’t see why Drain would lie, not on Day 5 at least. My vote stays, with the caveat that she is my next candidate to hang if Blaster Master does turn out town.

I’m definitely willing to believe that Pleonast is the Bishop…but whether or not he’s been recruited since now and then is up to debate. His behavior toDay was, at the very least, highly irritating. (And something of a null tell, IMHO.)

1749

[QUOTE=Blaster Master]
NETA: Considering the Drain Bead is scum, it’s difficult to say if Pleonast was just being hard-headed with this information, or if this is part of some ellaborate scheme to try to give her more credibility. Either way, considering that Pleonast specifically stated we should lynch him if his “confirmation” isn’t satisfactory, and it’s patently lacking in any supporting logic; further, considering people would rather vote for me than examine Darth Sensitive or Millit the Frail, for whom I think the scummy Drain Bead is covering, I’ll put my vote where Pleonast’s mouth is. How the hell was THAT suppose to be any sort of confirmation AT ALL? I think their little circle jerk of “you go first” “no, you go first” was yet ANOTHER clever way to draw MORE attention away from the Boss candidates, and get Drain Bead enough credibility to make sure I go first, all the while, it still leaves us with no way of firmly connecting Pleonast to scum.

You see, now, you “confirm” Drain Bead by lynching me, but it doesn’t give ANY confirmation on Pleonast because SHE went first and his information is all post hoc reasoning.

God, I just hope you people start looking at the logic at your feet once my blood is on your hands, and stop letting the scum jerk you around. So… for what it’s worth…

Unvote Millit the Frail
Vote Pleonast
[/QUOTE]

Not to worry, if you go down and are town, I’m thinking, Pleo, Darth, Millit, and Drain in that what-ever order. And maybe you missed my post about Pleo:

1750

[QUOTE=bufftabby]
And I suppose you plan on addressing the fact (which I already brought up) that a piece of your “case” against me is factually inaccurate? I never based my votes on what you are claiming I did. And I have expressed my own opinions, not just echoed others. That pretty much eliminates every bit of “evidence” that you have presented thus far.
[/QUOTE]

Well, since you asked so nicely, here you go. A synopsis of what made you my top candidate.

Here is the first example of you echoing the opinions of others, while not expressing any new ideas. You do this is several times.

Here is where you found aggression suspicious. To be fair, you never really followed up on it.

The first post after the night one’s result was revealed. This post jumps out as a new player being too eager to appear townie.

You were quick to agree that the Vig was the killer. Granted I thought it too, but the godfather would likely have taken that side of the argument.

You expressing your desire to lynch lurkers with no explanation why you would think the godfather would lurk.

You agree with someone else’s opinion, but not strongly. It seems like you want to leave yourself open to be able to argue both sides. You do this a few times.

The godfather would have reason to pay attention to this. Of course you may just have read the rules carefully.

The fifth vote on CapnPitt. No real reason given.

Okay here is the reason. I don’t think defensiveness is a good scum tell, but it is a reason.

It seemed overly strong language at the time. The odds of us finding scum was very low. Again, it felt like you were trying too hard to seem townie

Most nights you posted something to this affect. With the scum likely to recruit, there wasn’t really reason to be scared. These statements came off as overeager townie as well.

You seem quick to be agreeable throughout this game, even when people disagree with you completely. Like you are trying real hard for everyone to like you. I might go back and count the number times that you use the term I agree. It is a significant number.

Voting for lurkers is a useful strategy for scum, because they require no defense. If you end up being wrong, you can always claim well they were lurky.

Another one of these night posts.

Another vote that you just used someone else’s reason in lieu of your own.

Another post in which you agree with someone, but don’t take a side.
Snip

An attempt to make it seem like you had only two options you could consider. This also seemed to say that if one was innocent, than the other had to be scum, which isn’t true. You explained your reasoning for this a bit, but it still seemed like you were trying to take the easy way out.

1751

Here’s my original reason for voting for Darth:

Let me reiterate:

  • Initially, I voted for him because of his comment at Dusk about the lynch being fucked up before we even knew dotchan’s side.

  • Darth defended his vote by saying, “She didn’t ping scumdar, but she was the least townie.”

Now, I understand that some people want to make their vote “count,” so they will narrow their choices down to the frontrunners and vote for who they think is LEAST likely to be town, rather than MOST likely to be scum. I disagree with this kind of voting, but whatever. BUT

  • Darth also says, “The best case out of any that Day. But that isn’t saying much.”

This smacks to me of skimming. Scum, unless they are pretty fucking devoted scum, will not make the effort to comb the thread and come up with a suspect and a case. Scum are much more likely to skim the cases that have already been made and go from there. ALSO:

  • Darth, on Night 3, urges Koldanar to vote for whoever he thinks is “scummiest.”

Glaring inconsistancy. Why didn’t he take his own advice then?

Seriously, the “I voted for them, but that doesn’t mean I agreed with their lynch!” argument that Darth made does not make any sort of sense, and I am still astounded that people bought it. And before anyone jumps in yet again with a “Oh, but it could have just been a comment on the general situation!” defense, Darth has already said that his comment was referring specifically to the lynch.

Also, this post of BlaM’s jumped out at me:

It just seems too . . . guiding. Not a Townie demanding information. His questions to NAF take a terse “Care to explain?” tone -

In contrast, Blaster Master’s question to Darth seems almost as if he’s trying to offer an out; a way to dig himself out the hole he was in. Instead of merely saying, “Care to explain your vote?” he goes out of his way to present Darth with a number of reasonable options. Experienced recruit trying to guide inexperienced Boss? I think so.

My vote stands as is.

1752

HNC, now that’s a fair bit stronger than the premature lynch regret alone.
With a good suspect, I’d rather hunt the boss than take out a known scum.

Unvote Blaster Master
Vote Darth Sensitive

1753

Oops. That’s Vote Darth Sensitive

Hawkeye, I like your reasoning too, but I find HNC’s evidence for Darth more compelling right now.

1754

Oh yeah, there was one other thing I wanted to add:

Darth changed his vote ridiculously at the last minute with that lynch, with the rationale that he didn’t THINK NAF was scum but KNEW he himself wasn’t scum. NAF, on the other hand, after he made his last defense, was ready to just die and get it the fuck over with. Townies, about to be lynched and with nothing to claim, generally consider themselves expendable and die quietly. Especially in this game - if you are on the block and you haven’t claimed a power role, it becomes very obvious that you are a vanilla Townie and therefore open to recruitment (since the Boss is still alive). At that point you might as well get yourself lynched. Changing a vote at the very last minute simply to save your own skin, when at that point your own skin isn’t particularly valuable to the Town (or at least, no more valuable than the next person’s) - it just doesn’t sit well with me.

All right, that’s all I have to say for toDay. I have morning classes tomorrow so probably won’t be able to participate in any discussion anyway.

1755

[Quote=hawkeyeop]

Well, since you asked so nicely, here you go. A synopsis of what made you my top candidate.

Originally Posted by me:“I don’t think a random, blind lynch would be very productive either. I also don’t think I’d really be excited about getting the Boss on Day One, because that would cut the fun way too short. So: vote no lynch.”

Here is the first example of you echoing the opinions of others, while not expressing any new ideas. You do this is several times.
[/quote]

How many new ideas about Day One no-lynch can there be? But I’m not a drive-by voter. So I gave my opinion.

[Quote=hawkeyeop]

Originally Posted by me:“I think that lynching someone toDay would almost certainly be doing the Boss a favor. We are almost guaranteed to hit Town. We would be flying blind, and I think it makes a lot more sense to wait until Tomorrow. I mean, what criteria could we possibly go by to determine who this lone scum is? The only vaguely scummy thing I’ve seen is the desire to lynch toDay, and I would definitely not feel comfortable lynching anyone based on that alone.”
Here is where you found aggression suspicious. To be fair, you never really followed up on it.
[/quote]

Seriously? That translates into “vote aggressive player”? When I expressly indicated that I would not feel comfortable lynching on that alone? Musing aloud is half the process of reaching a decision sometimes. I’ve never had to consider that particular decision before, and I gave both sides of it a hard thought.

[Quote=hawkeyeop]

Originally Posted by me:“Hmm… Who the hell are we gonna hang for this?”

The first post after the night one’s result was revealed. This post jumps out as a new player being too eager to appear townie.
[/quote]

Yeah, I guess. Or, how about an eager new player? Sounds right to me.

[Quote=hawkeyeop]

Originally Posted by me:“I agree. I guess what I really mean to say is that I’m definitely not in favor of a nolynch toDay. I’m ready to take somebody out! But I don’t have a clue who it should be. Yet.”
You were quick to agree that the Vig was the killer. Granted I thought it too, but the godfather would likely have taken that side of the argument.
[/quote]

So, we held the same opinion, but I did it scum-style, while you were lily-white? I think there’s a gap in your logic: it was a sensible thing to think that the Vig had killed. But either a newb or a genius did the unexpected Day One; it’s hard to tell which. But it was certainly unexpected.

[Quote=hawkeyeop]

Originally Posted by me:“The use of “she” by Pleonast also set off my scumdar. However, I’m not quite ready to vote in that direction. I still want to see what else comes up.”
You agree with someone else’s opinion, but not strongly. It seems like you want to leave yourself open to be able to argue both sides. You do this a few times.
[/quote]

What about the subsequent exchange between me and Idle Thoughts (I think) where I explain my lack of familiarity with the concept of the FoS, and subsequently amended an FoS to the aforementioned post?

[Quote=hawkeyeop]

Originally Posted by me:“I really felt like he was scum. I think my 'dar is broken. D’oh!”
It seemed overly strong language at the time. The odds of us finding scum was very low. Again, it felt like you were trying too hard to seem townie
[/quote]
Uh huh. I must be scum because I seem so townie? You may wanna reconsider that logic. And how is that language “overly strong”? I thought we had a scum in the palm of our hand! We did not. D’oh!

[Quote=hawkeyeop]
Originally Posted by me:“I’m scared.”
Most nights you posted something to this affect. With the scum likely to recruit, there wasn’t really reason to be scared. These statements came off as overeager townie as well.
[/quote]
What’s up with you even breaking out the Night quotes? Is that even kosher? We’ve got two killers on the loose at that point, if you remember. That’s reason enough for me to be pseudo-scared.

[Quote=hawkeyeop]

You seem quick to be agreeable throughout this game, even when people disagree with you completely. Like you are trying real hard for everyone to like you. I might go back and count the number times that you use the term I agree. It is a significant number.
[/quote]

Finally, I actually understand where you’re coming from on this one. I was kind of anticipating this. I’m pretty affable. I understand that suspicion and a bit of hostility are pretty standard in Mafia, but that’s not really my style. I’m just not very aggressive. When people make valid points, I’m gonna agree with them. That may seem scummy to you, but I can live with that.
HazelNutCoffee, that argument against Darth Sensitive is pretty compelling, especially when you tie BlasterMaster in like that. It really does seem like he could’ve been discreetly assisting DS. I’d like to hear more from DS on this bit, but your argument has convinced me to unvote BlasterMaster, vote Darth Sensitive. Regular scum can wait. I’m ready for us to take the Boss down.

1756

[QUOTE=HazelNutCoffee]
Oh yeah, there was one other thing I wanted to add:

Darth changed his vote ridiculously at the last minute with that lynch, with the rationale that he didn’t THINK NAF was scum but KNEW he himself wasn’t scum. NAF, on the other hand, after he made his last defense, was ready to just die and get it the fuck over with. Townies, about to be lynched and with nothing to claim, generally consider themselves expendable and die quietly. Especially in this game - if you are on the block and you haven’t claimed a power role, it becomes very obvious that you are a vanilla Townie and therefore open to recruitment (since the Boss is still alive). At that point you might as well get yourself lynched. Changing a vote at the very last minute simply to save your own skin, when at that point your own skin isn’t particularly valuable to the Town (or at least, no more valuable than the next person’s) - it just doesn’t sit well with me.

All right, that’s all I have to say for toDay. I have morning classes tomorrow so probably won’t be able to participate in any discussion anyway.
[/QUOTE]

Heh. I remember in YSI arguing someone wasn’t scum, because they weren’t willing to just vote for the highest other vote getter to avoid being lynched. Turns out I was wrong, and you were scum. If Darth knew that he wasn’t scum, it is reasonable to vote in a way that ensures that someone else gets lynched. After all, in his perspective, it is possible that Naf was scum, and it wasn’t that Darth was. Besides Naf was claiming vanilla, so it wasn’t like Darth was risking outing a power role. Also, I don’t get the argument of lynching someone because they claim vanilla to protect them from recruitment. Most of the town are able to be recruited, I don’t a vanilla under suspicious is a prime target.

1757

[QUOTE=bufftabby]

Finally, I actually understand where you’re coming from on this one. I was kind of anticipating this. I’m pretty affable. I understand that suspicion and a bit of hostility are pretty standard in Mafia, but that’s not really my style. I’m just not very aggressive. When people make valid points, I’m gonna agree with them. That may seem scummy to you, but I can live with that.

[/QUOTE]

A lot it comes down to this. It reads as scummy to me, but it may just be your style. Unfortunately the only way I’m going to learn which it is when you come up dead.

1758

[QUOTE=Hawkeyeop]
I don’t get the argument of lynching someone because they claim vanilla to protect them from recruitment. Most of the town are able to be recruited, I don’t a vanilla under suspicious is a prime target.
[/QUOTE]

Obviously we’d rather lynch scum than vanilla townies. Darth’s only justification for his vote, however, was that he wanted to save his own skin. Whatever happened to “vote for who you think is scummiest”? Something that Darth himself supported, I might add.

1759

[QUOTE=HazelNutCoffee]
Darth changed his vote ridiculously at the last minute with that lynch, with the rationale that he didn’t THINK NAF was scum but KNEW he himself wasn’t scum. NAF, on the other hand, after he made his last defense, was ready to just die and get it the fuck over with. Townies, about to be lynched and with nothing to claim, generally consider themselves expendable and die quietly. Especially in this game - if you are on the block and you haven’t claimed a power role, it becomes very obvious that you are a vanilla Townie and therefore open to recruitment (since the Boss is still alive). At that point you might as well get yourself lynched. Changing a vote at the very last minute simply to save your own skin, when at that point your own skin isn’t particularly valuable to the Town (or at least, no more valuable than the next person’s) - it just doesn’t sit well with me.

[/QUOTE]

Alright, your other points were good, but this convinced me to switch my vote. I too would rather get the boss than just another scum. We can get Blaster Master later.

Unvote Blaster Master
Vote Darth Sensitive

1760

I want to get this out there toDay, in case bad things happen to me toNight: I have two fellow Masons.