Because sweeping in, picking one post and going “Aha! Here is scum!” has yet to work out for me unfortunately.
I don’t know enough about game balance to do much speculating about mechanics, so the only thing I can do is comment on people’s posts.
The abstain thing is muddled at best. It’s more his comment than the vote, though the vote got me examining him closer.
The comment. It moved him up my list of suspects to number one.
Curse you!
I know, right?
I’m tempted to vote for myself for that
tough break. Has anyone else had problems? Are you maybe a mac user who can’t open MS Word files or something like that?
:rolleyes:
the link I supplied contains general considerations applying to any game that in which doctors, vigilantes, and serial killers may or may not be present, and how that impacts the interpretation of the numbers of kills after a Night. I wonder why you have a problem with people supplying neutral and pertinent information like that in a game like this.
Er - the deadline?
Ahhhhhh, the song… special ed you’re on my list. I’m not sure I’ll actually vote for anyone on the list, but you’re there, dagnabit!
Interesting. You take my notice that outside websites are often frowned upon and state, “I wonder why you have a problem with people supplying neutral and pertinent information like that in a game like this.”
Can you please point out where I discouraged anyone from supplying neutral and pertinent information?
Or was it just a way to frame a question to make me look bad?
A common Scum tactic, in my experience, when someone finds any pressure uncomfortable and lashes out at the one giving it.
And it strikes me as even more possible since I really didn’t accuse you of anything at all. To me, it appears very defensive of you.
Now, back to the issue that you tried to re-frame.
As a former moderator, the problem I have with using something like that or google docs is the potential for communication that isn't within the game. Additionally, with various work filters/computers/smartphones/ we cannot guarantee that everyone involved in the game will have access to the information.
That's not to say I haven't used such things like hash tags web sites in the past. I've just come to understand the concerns that it brings.
While what you did may be completely innocent and with a strong desire to help, it's quite a slippery slope, and one I would like to avoid.
If you wanted to provide information of a general nature that can apply to many situations and not a discussion about this game, I can point you to our wiki:
http://mafiagameswiki.com/mafiaWiki/Main_PageSo let’s see if i can hash out my thoughts in this matter by writing down and summarizing what is going on - **Fubbleskag **finally comes out of the woodwork (does not justify his absence) and throws in an abstain vote; **Mahaloth **smells scum and votes to lynch Fubbleskag, at which point **Scathach **starts suspecting Mahaloth. All it takes is for **Fubbleskag **to vote for **Scathach **and we have a Mexican Standoff. Still, while I agree with Guiri that it is hardly the most remarkable thing that is going on right now, I’m probably with **Scathach **on this one, it would seem that voting for **Fubbleskag **is a bit rash (even if I do appreciate that **Mahaloth **has unvoted me). I am not so sure that Fubbleskag’s risk averse approach is such a bad thing (although his justification for it, combined with his relative absence in the game so far, may make things to look a bit iffy).
Couple of small things I noticed:
I wish we had embedded quotes. This quote misses the context but anyway- this is Trepa’s answer to Guiri’s question whether we can talk strategy at night, and whether scum can talk during the day. So does this mean that scum are aware of who the other scum are? Aren’t both of those things rather uncommon in games? How does this affect gameplay?
Given that there are a whole bunch of different options, a good reason for a vig to lay low is that it may convince people that there is no vig, I guess.
I feel that you discouraged me from supplying neutral and pertinent information by saying that what I did was seen as less and less acceptable, when I had (and have) no inkling of why that might be the case. I find that suspicious. I’ll ponder your explanation for a little bit, but it is not immediately clear to me how what I did might enable outside communication. I would really like to hear some other voices in this matter. Let me add, finally, that if you had offered more of your wisdom as a former mod right off the bat, instead of just posting something unspecific and vague like you did, this suspicion might not have been raised. I guess it’s your style, and it makes you special, but it’s not very helpful.
Jeezy creezy, if I make a pot of cocoa, will you two warm up? Svejk, it’s safest to avoid using non-modsanctioned tools like that. Perhaps talk to Trepa about it, and if he agrees, you can post more about it. The other aspect here is that, on Day 1, you have to make so many assumptions that it’s not going to tell you very much that’s useful. If scum can day talk, then I would assume they know who their teammates are. I’ve been in games where the scum team was laid out in the role PM and I’ve been in games where you had to wait until the first time scum can talk for everyone to identify themselves. (Often there’s a fluff N0 thread where scum can share role info and suchlike.)
Opinions vary on Scum Daytalk and Strategy Nights. The traditional setup has fluff nights and no Scum Daytalk. When town is given free rein on Nights, often scum are given help during the Day for balance. A scum team that can daytalk can coordinate much more ably as they can react to Day stuff in realtime. Fancier fake claims and the like.
Think it through.
Not being snarky, I can see you’re a smart guy trying to figure out how to play by your posts, just keep on thinking it through.
Is it better for town to know there’s a vig, or not? Can town direct the vig to target players they think are scum? Is the vig a target of scum? If the vig doesn’t use his powers right away, or all the time, can he become a lynch target? Can the scum convert the vig to their side? Does the vig have the same win condition as everyone else? Is it a power they can use all the time, or only once? How does the vig convince anyone else he’s the vig?
Those are just the possibilities just off the top of my head. I’m sure there’s more.
Think it through. Or don’t think at all. Like I said, I think quite a bit of this game is completely random.
I understand.
If you look back at my comment, it had nothing to do with any of the content you provided, just with the method of delivery.
You enabled outside communication by communicating to players through dropbox instead of through the message board.
To be honest, I looked at your doc, but I didn’t even bother reading it. I’m not of the mindset to try to guess the game set-up on day 1. I’m more willing to see how things happen and then figure it out. But others are different, and that’s fine.
I can, if you’d like, list a variety of ways in which this information is seen as undesirable by moderators:
- The moderator has no control over the information.
- The document can be changed/deleted at will by the creator (or others with permission) which circumvents the no editing rule.
- The information may not be accessible to all players which goes against the nature of an open game. For example, work or school filters may prevent downloading or accessing certain website, player may not have the needed software on their computers or phones.
- It is possible, to track those who have accessed the information and those who have not, prevent players who wish to hide their presence from doing so.
- The game is designed to be played on a message board. Spreadsheets and other documents can convey an unfair advantage to one side or the other through the ability to present or analyze information.
I’m sure others can come up with others, but in all honesty, I was just trying to point out to you that such a presentation of information is looked at as communication, and communication via off-board means is forbidden in this and most games.
And, I certainly meant no ill will. I do like to see how people respond under pressure though. I find it often gives insight into alignment.I apologize for not posting something sooner. I planned on trying to last night, but wound up getting 2nd place in my poker tourney, so I had to play all the way to the end. I can usually keep up with the thread at work, but I don’t get much opportunity to post there (partially just because I am so slow in composing posts).
Anyway, I think for Day 1, the cases against Precambrianmollusc and Mahaloth are both reasonable. I don’t like random votes and I especially don’t like a player intentionally abstaining from voting, but I don’t really see either thing as something that scum would openly do.
Of the two, I found Mahaloth scummier than Precambrian, though I admit that it is more of a feeling than anything concrete. Mahaloth’s vote seemed more like he was searching for a safe vote, where PCM’s vote had a more “just trying to get things started” feel. Of course, part of that might have just been the timing. Anyway,
Vote Mahaloth
As for other strategic matters, I agree that letting the vig take care of lurkers is the best option. I am only willing to wait a Day or two, though, before lurkers become fair game for lynching. We don’t want the lurkers clogging up the endgame. (Admittedly, I do not usually have high post count. If you consider me a lurker, so be it.)
Fisha, I like that you are trying to consider various possibilities. That said, if the answer to a couple of your questions was yes, I don’t think players here would consider it a vig. Like if the scum could convert them, or if they had a different win condition. Roles like that could exist (but I doubt they do in this game), but they would not be thought of as vigilantes.
Svejk, I could not open your document. Also, I did think that you overreacted to Ed’s comment concerning off board documents, but it did seem to me to be more “mafia paranoia” than “let’s try to get Ed lynched over this”. Still, I could see how someone could view it differently, especially if that person was the target.
I think there were some other minor things I wanted to comment on, but I need to go back and reread.
Well, hang on. By ‘outside docs’ being a bad idea, do you guys also mean any chart or whatever that someone might create and link to on his or her own webspace? Back in the other game I played, I put together some charts that were really helpful to me (though probably no one else found 'em useful) and actually kept my voting record pretty darn good… erm, up to a point, that is. 
So would those charts be disallowed here?
It’s mentioned in this post. I guess though the difference is that I did add the material directly into the post, but just added a better-looking copy on my own hosted site.
(Ye gods and little fishes, just looking through that thread gives me butterflies in my stomach. I hope like hell I don’t come across the way I did there.)
What I would recommend for a game I was modding would be this:
it is OK to create whatever notes you’d like for your own use. I would only share things by posting them in the game thread. I know the formatting can be awful for conveying information, but I think of it as part of the game.
But that’s me (and a few others)
egad! I’m a hypocrite
As I say all this, I post a link to a time/date website into another game. Just to provide a countdown timer for the DayEnd.
I’m going to go sit in the corner now.
Alright, I guess I was overreacting a little bit. Thanks for the clarification. I maintain that it might not have come to this if some more extensive directions and explanations had been supplied sooner - this is my first game after all - but that’s neither here nor there. At any rate, no hard feelings, putting this behind me to focus on hunting down some scum.
Inner Stickler, I’ll have that hot cocoa now, thank you 
I don’t know that scum lurk or post fluff(I think of fluff as essentially non-game related posts) so much as try to make it look like they are participating without really drawing attention. Some scum will lurk, but it seems in my experience, they are usually the same players that do not post much as Town either.
I know you often bring up your abysmal record, but I don’t think most of those losses are your fault. And I have seen you do some brilliant things in games. You obviously put much more thought into this game than I or most players do, so while I won’t just follow you blindly, I am always interested in hearing your reasoning. (Now I await the snuggling accusation.)
I doubt the mod would keep members of the scum team in the dark about who their teammates were, but Ed modded a game once where the scum did not know what powers each other had until after Day 1. That said, the scum are allowed day talk in this game, so I am sure they all know who each other are and are plotting our demise already.
Except, I think scum would be thinking they needed to try to be seen as participating in order not to draw this kind of attention (essentially trying to hide in plain sight). Whereas Town players would not be as concerned with making sure they showed up right away as long as they planned on contributing before the end of the Day. So, I would estimate the above list to have fewer scum proportionally than the overall game.
Hell, if nothing else, just make some sort of policy vote on Day 1. Vote for a lurker, vote for someone for voting a lurker, vote for someone for talking about lurkers. Hell, just vote for Ed for the link he inserted into this thread.
I have seen I think a fairly even distribution of gun shy vigs and gun happy vigs. I tend to think the best ones are the proactive ones who go after the lurkers or the players that were almost lynched. In those cases, they are not really substituting their judgement of who is scum for Town’s, but they are taking care of players who might be a problem for Town down the road.
If scum can win even after they have completely revealed themselves, I think they have eliminated all threats.
I have not actually clicked on that link, but considering it is a youtube video in response to someone mentioning Friday, I am pretty sure you just committed a lynchable offense.
I think when mafia first started on the board it was generally uncommon to have Night strategy and to allow the scum team to talk during the Day. It has become more common, though by no means universal, to allow Night strategy and scum talk during the Day
Yeah, I don’t think it was much of a problem since all the information was there in the thread. Also, it was a PDF, so it was not as if other players would be editing it. (I don’t know what kind of document Svejk linked to since I could not open it.) I do think it would be better overall, though, if you did not link to documents outside the thread and just put all the information in your posts. (Another consideration is people reading the threads in the future. You don’t know if those documents will still be around later.)
Anybody else having board problems? This is the first I’ve been able to get on in a couple of hours. It might be sporadic… I haven’t exactly been sitting here clicking “refresh” over and over.