Mainland China (PRC) Driving

In My Humble Opinion
1

I know we have a few Dopers who’ve lived or traveled extensively in mainland China, the PRC.

I have a shameful habit of watching driving fail videos. I admit I have a problem and they say that’s the first step to recovery. The second step is wanting to quit, and frankly I’m not there yet. :slight_smile:

In them you see Americans crashing from driving aggressively, Russians crashing from driving drunkenly, and Chinese folks crashing from driving, well, cluelessly. As if the very basics of forward, reverse, left, right, throttle, and brake are unfamiliar to them. The roads seem modern, the signage extensive & logical, the cars generally nearly new in excellent condition, The drivers appear middle-class (sub-)urban, and yet wacky stuff keeps happening.

Of course these are the selected lowlights of local driving. Chinese highways & boulevards may be slaughterhouses compared to e.g. German roads, but still millions of km are driven every week by millions of people without incident. I totally get that.

For folks who’ve lived or traveled a lot there, what is the real situation? Are there vast gouts of people who are barely in control of their cars? What if anything are the training standards for getting a license? Or are these waived by bribery or does nobody bother to get a license, just a car? Any entertaining anecdotes of close calls or crashes you’ve seen?

I drive in South Florida where the local attitude to traffic laws is … studied indifference. Rather more Parisian than USA-ian. So I’m certainly not casting stones or suggesting they’re fundamentally lesser people than us. They just drive more ineptly. Or so it seems. What’s the driving culture in e.g. Beijing or Shanghai or ???

2

I was recently in Italy and driving there seemed similar…road laws are more like guidelines. I was frankly impressed it somehow wasn’t a complete nightmare. Everyone seemed to be on the same page…mostly…and traffic just kinda sorted itself out…again mostly. More interesting was crossing big streets as a pedestrian. That takes some getting used to.

I have no experience driving in Asia but I have seen some of those videos too. My guess is China moved from rural poor with few cars to lots of wealth, everyone has a car and moved to the city. The driving culture didn’t mature fast enough. Just my WAG though.

3

Not all the roads are in excellent condition. The government is trying* to keep things decent and the people following the rules of driving. They’re not having that much success, really, in either endeavor. I attribute it to the average driving experience being approximately two years, the cars are modern but the drivers’ attitude isn’t. By that I mean they are really stuck in a certain aspect of the past, i.e. fatalism: If if it happens, it was destined. Another problem is the entitlement of the rich and powerful. You’re not going to see all that many videos of someone driving a tuk-tuk and parking it illegally or going down the road the wrong way.

The United States State Department has this to say about traffic safety in China:

Road Conditions and Safety: Traffic safety is generally poor and driving can be dangerous, though rules, regulations, and conditions vary greatly throughout China.

Traffic can be chaotic and largely unregulated and the rate of accidents, including fatal accidents, is among the highest in the world. Motorcycle and bicycle accidents are frequent and often deadly. Pedestrians do not have the right of way, and you should show extreme caution when walking in traffic, even in marked crosswalks.

And here is an old Slate article about the “double hit”:

In April a BMW racing through a fruit market in Foshan in China’s Guangdong province knocked down a 2-year-old girl and rolled over her head. As the girl’s grandmother shouted, “Stop! You’ve hit a child!” the BMW’s driver paused, then switched into reverse and backed up over the girl. The woman at the wheel drove forward once more, crushing the girl for a third time. When she finally got out from the BMW, the unlicensed driver immediately offered the horrified family a deal: “Don’t say that I was driving the car,” she said. “Say it was my husband. We can give you money.”

What’s not mentioned is stuff I see regularly living in Beijing: people running red lights, turning in front of oncoming cement mixer trucks, driving down the sidewalks regardless of pedestrians, not giving way to pedestrians at marked crosswalks when the pedestrian has the Martian** in their favor, just to mention a few.

Nah, you’re not going to get that in a youtube video, and it’s certainly not going to remain up if one posts it on China’s social media owing to their laws. And even more so if the offender happens to be rich and/or a high party official.

Training standards seem to be pretty good, ostensibly. The theory test is 100 questions (but badly translated, so you’re screwed most of the time if you’re taking it in other than Chinese) with a required passing rate of 90% and a time limit of 45 minutes. More information about getting a driver license in China is provided here. As the country’s governments at each level continue to modernize, more and more services are going computerized so the opportunity for bribing your way out of failing the tests is fast disappearing.

*When I said that to a friend who also lives in Beijing, he said, “That’s right; they’re very trying”.
**Little Green Person

4

Not sure about a lot, have travelled for several weeks by car in China but always with an assigned driver.

Now these guys could all drive well. Their vehicles were well maintained. But the attitude was a sort of Confucian “road rage”

From my experience, in many places eg Shanghai the traffic is so heavy that cars rarely get sufficient speed for a serious accident to occur. And there are guys with their kid pillion on bikes on both outside lanes and the median strip. But if you put a novice in these conditions and it could get dire.

As one of the drivers said, “In China the car’s horn is more important than the brakes.” At a pedestrian crossing they don’t wait for the pedestrians … if they did the constant stream of humanity would mean vehicle would never proceed forward.

Being driven back from the Great Wall to Beijing we were on a four lane road. In the left lane was a heavily laden ox cart. The ox cart was being overtaken by a tractor. The tractor was being overtaken by a bus. Our driver was overtaking the bus. Two lanes of traffic were coming the other way. One was a line of armoured personal carriers. The lead one swivelled its turret to face us. I don’t know how it was resolved without incident, I was hiding behind the back seat.

5

My (Chinese) wife explained the attitude as “there are a billion other people in China and I can’t waste my time worrying about all of them; I’ll just worry about myself”.

6

Sounds about like how folks from NJ & NYC drive (and think in general). But with a couple extra zeros tacked on the back for good measure. :slight_smile: Sounds sporty. I’ll have to try it some day.




Thanks all. Very informative and sorta what I expected.

My brother once learned to drive big rig trucks here in the USA and did that job for a couple years. Summarizing mightily: it sucked. Anyhow, he is generally a very polite “no, after you” sort of person IRL & when driving.

During training they had to drag a semi-trailer down a busy narrow urban street then back it into a parking lot between two buildings along the way. So of course he came to a halt and tried to wait for traffic to clear in both directions while creating a backlog behind himself that continuously dribbled by on one side …

After about a minute the instructor-driver exploded at him: “You can sit here all day waiting for the gap that never comes or you can make your gap. Just move the truck where it needs to go. Trust me, they’ll all get out of the way.” Using rather more … colorful … language as Bro tells the story. :wink:

Sorta the same problem and definitely the same solution.

7

Meh, how bad can China really be compared to the Congo, Thailand, Indonesia, Egypt, Iran, etc.

8

Compared to those places PRC urban / suburban traffic probably is safer / saner.

But at least in urban / suburban China you have paved roads, decent drainage, signs that haven’t been stolen for scrap, etc. It gives the impression of a civilized sorta-orderly law-abiding place on a par with Boston, NYC, or Paris. Not e.g. Kinshasa, Cairo, or Bangkok.

I ride around in Latin American and Caribbean big & medium cities all the time. I’m plenty familiar with their brand of chaotic traffic, flooded roads, no shoulders, small retail opening directly onto 50mph 4-lane highways, careening motorbikes everywhere, etc. I also lived in Panamá for 3 years. I’m familiar with their “Bigger is better, and a bigger horn is better than bigger brakes” school of driving.

The Chinese YouTube examples seemed far more about drivers who could not even control their car, rather than about drivers who crashed from excess aggression, involvement with chaotic traffic, or overloaded crappy infrastructure. Those other sorts of crashes are also a YouTube staple, but they’re a different staple. And are much more seen in the less “civillized” / wealthy countries.

Hence my question about the difference.

9

It’s been around ten years since I’ve driven in China, and I only drove in a limited area, but when I got home I explained to people that they drove like pedestrians walk.

You’ve seen the way pedestrians interact. There are no rules, no signage just streams of people doing their best to not bump into each other. The driving was the same way. Everybody tried not to crash and it mostly worked.

10

I admit I haven’t been everywhere in the world, but I’ve been a lot of places. The worst traffic I’ve ever seen, by far, was in Bangkok.

11

“Worst” as in most dense / congested / gridlocked, or “worst” as in most insane reckless foolish driving?

Or both? :eek: :grin:

12

Worst as in congested/gridlocked.

It was common to be stuck at a traffic light not moving for 15, 20 minutes. And again at the next traffic light.

13

I have had the dubious pleasure of being in a traffic jam in Jakarta for eight hours. Fortunately I was not driving.

We were staying in Bogor, some 80km south of Jakarta, and if we went there we would plan on 4 hours travel time each way.

What really blew my mind in Indonesia was being a pedestrian, crossing the street. You can’t stand on the side to wait for a gap, there will never be a gap.

So you just confidently (in my case, very much acting confident) walk into the traffic, and it flows around you.

A friend of mine was berated by the owner of the motorcycle hire place he used somewhere in Thailand for adjusting the mirrors on the bike. He was told in no uncertain terms to look forward only, what is behind will sort itself out.

I drove in India, but only in small towns. The cities are crazy.

14

No idea where/when I first saw this:

If you’re driving in Europe and another driver is shaking his fist at you, he’s German.
If he’s leaning out the window and shaking his fist at you, he’s French.
If he’s leaning out the window and shaking both fists at you, he’s Italian.

15

And if he’s waving his pistol at you, he’s American.

16

I never drove in China, I would simply hire a driver, since they are inexpensive and contribute to the local economy.

Aside from the limited access highways, if it’s a 4-lane (two lanes in each direction), the right-most lane is reserved for people going the wrong way. You can use it to pass on the right, but be prepared for wrong-way drivers.

For someone wanting to make a left-hand turn, watch out! They will just edge into traffic until opposing traffic stops. It doesn’t matter if there is an intersection. If they want to turn left, they will.

Really, it’s Walmart parking lot rules. On the main roads. If you are going to try it, be watchful and practice defensive driving (and not the Texas Defensive Driving).

17

What’s Texas Defensive Driving? Defensive driving with a gun in your hand?

18

I had a Chinese drivers license, and quite often drove myself in Nanjing and thereabouts from 2011 to 2016.

But first, part of my car lease included the unlimited use of a professional driver (hi, Mr. Zhou!) 24 hours a day, which is definitely the majority of my miles.

Still, I needed the freedom and privacy and open roads that driving my own car myself gives you, and I work for a major automotive OEM that fosters that spirit, so I got my license. Here’s how I got that:

I paid for a translator to take the test for me. And I paid the re-test fee after he failed it the first time. Although the test is available in English (and a few other languages), you’re allowed to bring a translator and take the test in Chinese if you want to, so I did that. And because I already had a valid Michigan license, I didn’t have to take a skills test.

I did have one accident while I was there. I hit a moped who had run a red light. I avoided a whole lot more accidents, though, because typical Chinese are just really, really bad drivers, and Chinese bus and truck drivers are absolute fucking assholes.

Car ownership is aspirational for the Chinese. Despite excellent public transportation, they prove that cars don’t disappear if you central-plan and subsidize a subway. The problem is, they don’t have decades of experience driving or even riding as passengers in cars, and have no idea how traffic works, and no idea of right of way or common courtesy. Think if it as an entire country of 15 year olds who have just gotten their learner’s permits, all driving at the same time, but also with asshole bus and truck drivers who do know how to drive but are just assholes.

Luckily most accidents happened at low speeds (other than busses and trucks), because everyone drives slowly and way under the speed limit, and on freeways, in whichever lane they want to be in.

In contrast while in Thailand, driving was already the norm for them. Speeds were high, and most drivers knew how to navigate their cars. Deaths were also more frequent as a result of these speeds. I’ve seen more roadside body bags in Thailand than I’ve seen cumulatively everywhere else in my life. Presumably most of these were motorbike-vs-car deaths.

19

The majority of the population in China only began driving less than 20 years ago. Prior to then, most people rode bicycles and used mass transit. Within a 10 year period they built a huge interstate infrastructure across the country. Western car companies began producing cars in China for local purchasing. Buick was one of the most popular cars produced there. Since then local car production from local companies has taken off. Young professionals began buying cars and taking driving lessons.

I’m sure it has improved, but in the mid naughts it was like the wild west on the freeways and roads across China.

20

Sort of. The motto for Defensive Driving in Texas is, “The best defense is a strong offense.” When you’re in command of a 4000-5000 Lb vehicle with 300+ horsepower, a gun, while likely, isn’t always required.