The point is that “therapy” isn’t a magic bullet. When you’re struggling with a defiant teen, it’s not just a matter of signing up for therapy. It’s an avenue to explore, but often it’s generally not enough. When it’s your kid, you have to figure out how to save their life, and there is no comforting authority who can figure put the best way through: you consult with a lot of people and take the advice that makes sense, but it’s always a multi-prong approach.
Its worth a try when you are a parent grasping at straws (been there, done that), but anyone who has seen a kid through three or four trips through rehab or the psych ward knows that therapy is the best of a bunch of really shitty options when someone is really screwed up.
And when you are abput two years into the process, people saying "have you considered therapy? " is a whole new level of frustration.
It’s like you’re having your car rekeyed and the mechanic asks if you tried looking for your keys on your purse.
According to one anthropologist, kids changing behavior in order to get approval only works until about 8 or 9. Since my oldest on still only 9, I don’t have direct experience myself. I know many friends with older kids and by 12 to 14, the kids are wanting to spend more time with their friends than with the parents.
I do think that it’s likely the father needs to look really hard at himself first. Or as Jeff says it:
While kids do really want stability and discipline they sure as hell don’t want it in the short run. We’re struggling at the moment with our son and trying to set limits for his whinny behavior. It leaves all of us frustrated at times.
Well, to be fair to the mechanic, if they are on the purse in plain view, perhaps you should have looked there. 
Another friend of mine has a kid - previously unmentioned in this thread - who is now a Junior in high school - and I think is straightening out. But its been since fifth grade. And we are talking psych ward and cops (he called because his parents were “abusing” him once - that was a fun exercise in getting to know the system). They have called because he has physically lost it - and keeping a large fifteen year old boy from harming himself or others is not something most 50 year old mothers are equipped for. There has been medication, and medication switches. There have been periods of a week or two where he just is missing - he turns up fine and fed - but won’t say where he’s been.
I think he’ll turn out ok - he is significantly better at seventeen than he was at fifteen. But yeah, don’t look at her and say “so have you tried therapy” - the look you’d get in response would kill you.
(And yes, he is her youngest - and yes, there was a certain amount of pride in her excellent child rearing skills when she was raising easy children).
Remembering back to my own childhood it was never fear of getting my ass kicked that stopped me from doing anything even if I knew I would get my ass kicked. My greatest fear was disappointing my parents and having them think less of me as a person. They had integrity in my eyes and it was important that I had integrity in their eyes. I was a pretty wild kid but I kept it out of the house and I drew the line at certain types of behaviors.
I think this mans best hope is a brutally honest acknowledgement of his own failures as a father and as a man in general and a genuine expression of love in that he will change because he knows his behavior has hurt his daughter. Truth is this guy doesn't have enough character to do this.Growing up there was a family in the neighborhood that was a typically large Mormon size with six or seven kids which were all fairly close in age to the five of us children in our family. One boy was a year younger than me and out of all of the children he alone turned out to have some pretty serious issues. He was arrested a number of times by the time we were in high school. He was into drugs and drinking at 14 and 15. Finally he was sent to live with his aunt and uncle.
That is a case where the father and mother were good, involved parents who just happened to have a child who was troubled. (Actually, the other kids in my age group at church also got into drugs and breaking the law. There were about five or six of us, and I was the only one to graduate from high school, let alone go to college. Being socially awkward isn’t always a bad thing. Had I fit in, I may have been with them.)
Of course none of this is true. A one year old does not have the cognitive skills to understand the concept of “discipline” in any meaningful way.
Agreed, but it’s possible that parents that do a good job training themselves/adjusting to the new reality in those first 18 months are more effective later, when it matters.
Or it’s the inevitable claims of the importance of authoritarian parenting.
A troubled or difficult child in a family that does not have a history of this often means that the child has been abused by someone outside the family. Not always, but quite frequently it does.
I have a FBF who adopted her kids (full biological siblings) out of foster care when they were 4 and 7. Hoo, boy, did they have issues with them when they hit their teenage years! 
Their son had to be institutionalized for a while, and their daughter chose to live on the streets rather than follow any rules; eventually, that adult part of their brain kicked in and they are now reasonably responsible adults. The daughter appears to be a wonderful mother to her son, who sadly will grow up without his father, whom she was planning to marry when he died in an accident when the boy was 8 months old.
To msmith537.
Does a colt have that understanding? Then how do you train one not to kick you when you pour oats in his feed bucket in his stall?
Humans are mammals and baby mammals do not understand discipline so try to talk to them tomorrow about what they did today is useless.
An instant swat = pain which teaches that doing that act means instant pain. Baby Mammals can understand that.
Human mammals after a certain amount time and learning can understand punishment tomorrow for what they did today, most other mammals can’t.
You have seen the cute video of the three dogs getting asked who made the mess with the human came home and one dog understands that he is in trouble for doing it. Some non human mammals can get to this level of understanding but it is still very limited compared to human standards.
Letting babies touch a hot stove or stick a wire in an electrical socket or pee on you every time you try to change a diaper get away with all the multitudes of behavior they quickly learn to use to get what they want; way before they understand non painful punishments; = a kid 100 times harder to teach almost anything to about what is not to be allowed when they are older.
This is my opinion. I had to use pain along with verbal, “NO” very few times because I was consistent. Baby humans need consistency as much if not more than baby animals. You also need to understand that one swat is not a spanking ( more than one blow ) nor is it brutal, bruising or bone breaking.
I totally disagree with your opinion of how myself, 6 other siblings, my 2 children, and all my cousins, etc. were raised. It apparently is not totally wrong by looking at how these people turned out and are continuing to be great people.
I am not sure how young but I believe possibly as young as 6 months children can start to comprehend discipline. A mild display of displeasure is about all a youngster needs.
You can err both ways with young kids. For the first few months - you cannot “spoil” a baby - they are trying to communicate their needs the only way they can, and they can’t yet control their emotions around hungry or tired or uncomfortable (which is all they are expressing).
As their needs get bigger and they start to learn, they can learn to manipulate parents - they won’t go to sleep without someone holding them - they can be taught to sleep on their own, which is usually the start of the “discipline” you can give a baby. Other than demanding to be held or demanding or rejecting food, there isn’t much a baby can do that requires “discipline” - until they get mobile and start pulling the cat’s tail - which is usually before a year, but later than six months - and then the discipline is generally a “no” and redirection. But some parents, in the interest of “you can’t spoil a baby” will continue to respond to any cry with attention and/or food - and at some time you start to spoil them. At the same time, you need to provide security to meet their needs - they have to know they are loved, fed, and safe - and that their cries are heard.
However, you can also start assuming that your small child is capable of adult logic and understanding of consequences. They really don’t. You need to teach them right from wrong - but you can’t do it with adult logic. “We don’t hit” and a timeout is better for most kids than ignoring it (erring on the side of no discipline), or a long explanation about the golden rule and the importance of keeping our hands to ourselves (erring on the whole “I’m going to treat my kids like adults” or hitting back (the kid may learn that bigger people get to hit and become a bully). And hitting doesn’t come until they have the muscle control to put direction and intent to their little hands and feet, until then, what they are doing isn’t hitting - that’s usually older than six months - but usually younger than a year and a half. I’ve had a lot of Unitarian Sunday School kids raised with the second method of rational thought - and when they turn out well they are awesome - and when they don’t, they are brats.
Punishing a BABY for urinating on you while you change them?!?!? Are you serious? I never had children, and even I know that is NOT misbehavior!
OTOH, maybe this is the only way an older baby could communicate that they don’t like it when the big person hits them for things they can’t control.
Well, apparently I was doing it and my paternal grandmother saw it and asked my mom why she was allowing me to do it. So grandma changed me and I did it again so she popped me on the butt. I never did it again. I was doing it on purpose. I believe if you do have a boy child of this type, your ‘knowing’ is gonna get you peed on a lot. bawahahaha
" I never had children, and even I know that is NOT misbehavior!" Well, my son did it also. One swat and he stopped. If a parent can’t tell the difference between an accident and a deliberate activity a baby makes, there is going to be a lot of problems. Like knowing the difference in types of crying. Need to learn quick or you will be run ragged.
Babies are way smarter and devious than most young new parents can believe. One of the advantages of coming from a big family and a background of many relatives with lots of children.
Mom taught the older two of us kids to change, bathe & feed the two youngest. We had a lot of practice holding, rocking & entertaining babies.
My boy (first child) and my daughter (second child) were totally different over & above their sex difference. But wife & I had already dealt with both types so in many ways we had an easier time dealing with our kids than most of our friends.
“My kids are perfect because I hit them.” Yeah, heard that before. :dubious:
I looked through this thread and got sort of a idea, I may have missed a post or so, but did not get a answer, WTF does ‘mind’ mean in ‘making kids mind’?