Marriage being a legal, business arrangement has a lot of practical implications that do, in my opinion, reflect a partner’s seriousness, love, and commitment.
Because we can’t read each others’ minds or predict the future, society initiates rituals (of which the handshake is simply another example, just like matrimony) to signify the level of commitment we hope to bind ourselves to.
I do not blame the OP for wanting a signifier of the heightened commitment that is (aspirationally, in our society) denoted by marriage. And I say this as a man who has encountered female “pressure” on this dicey subject.
When I was squirming under such “pressure,” I was doing so precisely because I believed that marriage wasn’t just a piece of paper, and did represent a higher, more absolute (to us), level of commitment than what we had had to date. I suspect there are some men who take the “why bother, it’s just a piece of paper?” position out of true indifference or out of true principle or iconoclasm. I suspect most guys who say this, though, don’t really believe there is “no difference” between an LTR and a marriage, as we can quickly determine by posing the thought experiment, “Well, if it’s irrelevant, then you should be largely indifferent to whether we do it, so let’s do it, just to humor me.” I suspect most guys taking the “it doesn’t make a difference” line would not go along with this.
I do see a disconnect between men and women here on this question. In my experience, and I realize I’m generalizing, men are happy to keep shacking up, while the women have some expectation that the men will eventually pop the question. And I know instances where the men have waited too long, and suddenly found themselves out on their ear, to their enduring regret.
It’s usually men who are saying that marriage is “pointless,” to crib a word from Priceguy, or “a legal, business agreement,” to crib from Inigo. Women find this wounding, even when they know the objection is not meant personally.
I think you’re getting good advice here, lezlers. And speaking personally, in response to the OP, I had to be pushed. Good thing I’m wishy-washy.
I won’t pretend the OP’s concerns aren’t valid, by any stretch of the imagination. But I would like to take a moment to present a brief example as a counterweight.
I am part of a circle of friends that have stayed close in the nearly 20 years since college. Of the entire group, the most well-adjusted, longest-lasting, domestically stable couple is the couple who are not actually married. They have owned many homes together, have moved from city to city together, and would be what I would hold up as a wonderful example of a married couple – except that they’re not legally married.
I bring this up to illustrate that although in many cases reservations like your guy have expressed are alarming, they do not necessarily preclude a happy life together.
Here’s the thing.
Having a child with someone is 10 times the commitment of marrying them.
If you don’t want kids, you can put off the marriage question forever, no big deal. If you want to have kids, then the question of whether he also wants to have kids with you must be answered.
If he doesn’t want to have children with you, then you need to get out. Don’t give him an ultimatum, don’t play games. Just a simple statement of fact, “I want to have kids. If you don’t want to be the father of my kids then I’ll have to find someone else. I’ll give you time to think about it, but I need your answer within X months. If you won’t commit to having kids with me before then, I’ll have to leave.”
And either mean it, or give up on having kids.
Speaking first-hand, if the OP needs to bring this up with BF at some point (and I think it might not be out of order to have one more discussion), the way that is likely to be well-received is one that includes the following elements:
(1) I’m not going to bug you or pester you about this, but just wanted to make sure you know where I stand; and
(2) I love you and always want to be with you, and, not to freak you out, one day I want to have your kids; and
(3) Not to put you under the gun, but if that’s what you want too, one day, we need to be realistic about fertility issues, career planning, and so forth; and
(4) You’re great, I’m not complaining, you’re not doing anything wrong, what we’ve had so far has been good but I’m convinced that going to the next step would only make it better; and
(5) Nothing would really change if we were married, 'cause we’re already together all the time; and
(6) I’m not talking about a Bridezilla wedding, I’d be happy to go to City Hall (or have it with just immediate family, or whatever the minimal level of fuss you can justify is); and
(7) You’re great, and I don’t want to be with anyone else, and that’s all I’m saying; but
(8) Please, if you don’t think that’s something you can probably do, before I get much older, I hope you love me enough that you’d be able to let me know that.
There’s no ideal way of making this speech, but the above (elements of which are drawn from things I and friends have heard from reasonable women) avoids most of the common pitfalls that will set the guy into fight-or-flight mode. The best part of this message is the part about “this is a huge compliment to you, dumbass, not a complaint that you’ve gypped me or ‘wasted’ my time, or that I ‘deserve’ to be married.” No one “deserves” a ring, but they do deserve an honest answer, and someone who can’t honestly answer based on the above approach isn’t playing fair (even if the honest answer is, as I suspect is often true, “I don’t want to get married right now but I can imagine that I probably will at some point, and I can’t currently think of anyone I’d want more than you, so let’s stay together for now and that will likely happen.”). The honest answer may not accord with every girl’s romantic Cinderella fantasy, but then take into account that the average guy grew up dreaming of hacking his way through the Amazon or being an international man of mytery surrounded by dozens of hot babes who want to pork him, so most men are having to compromise a bit on their fantasy too.
Leave.
Don’t leave angry, don’t leave as an ultimatum. Just leave.
Be honest. You do want marriage, he does not want marriage. This represents an incompatibility of a profound nature. Continuing the current relationship is just ignoring that inevitability.
I don’t think it needs to be the end of your relationship, but you have to get on the path that leads to what you want. Dating your current is fine, but approximating marriage while denying it is very likely to make real marriage impossible for you, and you want it.
If he decides that continuing to be close is not possible for him, everyone has hurt feelings, but that is going to happen no matter what. There might well be someone who wants permanent temporary commitment, and he will leave you. Or, he might reevaluate his choices. You might do some reevaluating as well. But continuing to live in a manner that precludes something you want, something as basic and huge as lifetime commitment in marriage is just unreasonable for you.
Tris
I’ve been going back and forth about responding to the OP. I’m not much of a writer, and I’m worried my post may come off sounding uncaring - that is not my intent. With that out of the way…
lezlers, you sound like you’re describing me. Marriage is not important to me. I love my wife with everything I have, but I never saw the point of getting married. Our relationship is just that - our relationship. The idea of getting a piece of paper to make it ‘official’ seems bizarre; why should we have to register our love for each other? And with the amount of divorces that happen, I don’t see how the act of getting married would help us through any tough times when it’s almost as easy to just break up or get a divorce. The whole thing just seemed like a whole bunch of trouble for nothing, and it wouldn’t change anything between us (nor would I want it to).
As someone pointed out earlier, saying you don’t understand (or have any use for) marriage is basically stating that you are ambivalent - I completely agree. My wife and I had many discussions about this, and I came to realize that while I didn’t much care about marriage (and thought the whole idea was kind of strange), it was very important to her. Please note that this did not happen quickly - we’re talking a couple years here. And many of our conversations didn’t go well, and at times I did feel that I was getting pressured into marriage, but in the long term that doesn’t really matter. What matters most is that we both found the person that we wanted to spend the rest of our lives with, and I was (and am) content with that. My wife wanted to announce it to all her friends and family, and then have a party afterwards.
So, that’s what we did. We had a very small ceremony with only about 23 people there. We all flew down to Key West for a week, hung out with friends and family, then got married in about five minutes by some nice lady we found online.
I guess the point to my ramblings is that being together does call for compromise. I got married because it is important to my wife. I will spend my life with her because I love her and she loves me - to me the marriage doesn’t come into play, for her it does. You need to talk to each other more, and be very clear with not just what you want, by why you want it.
Good luck.
(On preview, in response to Triskadecamus: DON’T leave. You say you love this man - why the hell would you throw that away because of one disagreement? Don’t waste what could be the rest of your life with a man who cares for you. Talk it over - many times - and think about it from his perspective and yours.
I’m not here to debate the merits of marriage. I get that some people don’t see the point, and that’s fine. However, I do see the point and badly want to get married. My position on that isn’t going to change. If he truly does not want marriage, that’s okay too, that means we want different things in life and should part ways. It’ll break my heart because I am deeply in love with him, but I just can’t give up my dream. Not yet.
For all of the “anti-marriage” posters asking me why I want to be married anyway and whether I want marriage more than him, it cuts both ways. Why wouldn’t he want me more than he doesn’t want marriage? Why am I being expected to throw out my dreams for the sake of staying with him? Why isn’t he being expected to go against his beliefs for the sake of being with me?
I also like nycandia’s advice, and it’s what I’ve pretty much resolved myself to doing. It’s the whole “not telling him” part that kills me though. I’m a big communicator and I don’t think I could keep something this big to myself for the next year. It also doesn’t seem fair to have a timeline in my head that he’s unaware of. I’ve told him before that I want to at least be engaged by 30, but I don’t want to spend the next two years wondering if I’m “waiting” to marry him or to leave him.
Why go for the nuclear option when Huerta88 proposes a much more reasonable course of action? Talk it out, apply pressure even, and then reevaluate. What’s it cost – a couple months’ time?
By the way, lezlers, not to get too much into a perilous side issue, but how’s your relationship with the kid?
More than that. Unless you’re a rat, having a kid with someone is a lifetime committment. If you get married, then divorce, and never see the person again, no big deal. If you leave a kid, you’re a :wally .
In addition, and I’ll probably get flack for this, having kids without being married is stupid. Not immoral, just stupid and immature. (I’m not talking about man as sperm donor here, I’m assuming a relationship.) If a guy is not committed to someone enough to be married, he’s not committed enough to be a father.
You might ask him why he hates marriage so much? No benefit? There’s benefit to you, clearly, and if he cares about you that should count for something.
As a guy, I can say that the stuff he is saying about marriage is automatic guy bullshit. Piece of paper? It’s not the paper, or the ring, and certainly not the ceremony that’s important. It’s the willingness to take the next step. Nothing to worry about? That sounds more like a conman than a boyfriend. He might be scared, in which case you need to find out why, or he might not be all that interested in a truly long term relationship, in which case you should stop wasting your time. But you shouldn’t accept pat Man Show answers from him any more.
Male here. What I see is that you’re presenting him with a compelling emotional argument, and he’s giving you only intellect — you’re not connecting. You probably aren’t even having the same conversation.
Since he states there is no benefit to marriage, tell him there is one: it would make you happy. Ask him if he’s okay with not making you happy.
As a 28 YO woman I think you’d better get the kid question answered before you worry too much about the marriage question. As a 33 YO man with one kid already he may be in no hurry to have more kids.
Beyond this take him seriously when he tells you is negative on the concept of marriage. Many women spend good chunk of time waiting or negotiating for a proposal that never comes, the relationship eventually ends and the ex (shockingly) get married almost immediately to the next girl he meets. One womans take on this was -
“It turns out when he said he didn’t want to get married, what he really meant was that he didn’t want to get married to me.”
I know I’m not male, but let me offer something our minister said to us at our first premarital session (I’m marrying Only Mostly Dead next month):
When referring to a part of the ceremony he said (rough quote) “Basically the two of you are already married. Something has happened in your relationship at some point and neither of you would feel the same without the other person. You are already married. This part just announces it to the world for them to acknowledge what has already happened.”
When you are seriously thinking about marriage, maybe present it as my minister said. And if your SO doesn’t agree with the statement, then you need to discuss it further.
Bottom line: even now, talk to him. He’s the only one that can tell you what he means.
Wasn’t that Meg Ryan in When Harry Met Sally …?
Wow, I always feel apprehensive when I disagree with Tris, but I have to say I think his post is a little premature.
Lez, a lot of people are trying to tell you that marriage shouldn’t in fact mean to you what it does mean to you – that your reasons for wanting it and valuing it are antiquated or no longer valid. But that’s not what you asked. The question was what to do with a guy who doesn’t want to be married when you do.
It seems to me that you have to decide for yourself how important it is to you to be married, and to have children in a marriage. If you have decided in your heart that marriage is what you want and need, and that you are not willing to sustain a relationship that doesn’t include that, or isn’t moving towards that, then you owe it to your guy to let him know that. But where I disagree wiht Tris is that I don’t think you leave right this minute. Instead, it seems to me to be reasonable to put some sort of timeframe on the decision making progress: “I want to be married. I hope you would want to marry me, or at least be willing to marry me, because I hope you want to be with me forever. You say that we haven’t been together long enough for you to make that sort of decision – okay. Let’s give it six months [or a year or whatever] and then see how you feel.” Then have the conversation is six months and, if he still says “I don’t want to” or “it’s too soon” or “I can’t decide,” then you have a decision to make for yourself: stay, or go. Setting a time for discussion will prevent the situation where you wake up 3 or 5 or 9 years later, still unmarried and unhappy about it. But key, IMO, is that between when you have the conversation setting the future discussion, and when you have the future discussion, you quit bringing it up or nagging him about it.
It’s obvious why he would consider imposition of a deadline to be you putting pressure on him, because in a way you are. But it may help to think about it as you working towards your own goals in your own life, and you being entitled to know for sure if he’s signing up for the program or not.
The only thing I think is not realistic about your concerns is your hope that he will be delighted to get married. He’s clearly feeling ambivalent about the topic. At the end of the day, he may decide he would rather marry you than lose you, but that may be in spite of his feelings about marriage, not because of them. If he’s willing to compromise to the extent of getting married, you may have to compromise to the extent of overlooking or ignoring the fact that he actually would prefer not to.
And while I agree with bup that law school is plenty stressful and therefore not the ideal time to be making life-changing decisions, where you are at in your relationship might well have a significant impact on what you do after law school – what jobs you’re willing to apply for, and where you’re willing to move. First jobs post-lawschool are generally decided sometime during third year, so if you think your plans will be different if you are flying solo after graduation, that seems to me a pretty good reason to have this discussion now, not later.
Good luck! 
There are many things that bother me in this thread:
-
The idea of marriage as a goal or dream in life. I know many people like this. From the first date with someone they are weighing whether they are marriage material. As they get older they start to worry about when they will get married, and push significant others to commit. They don’t see the point in seeing anyone if they don’t feel they will marry them. I don’t get it. My goal is to be happy and enjoy life, both of which may or may not have anything to do with marriage. I also think that many of these people with this as a goal end up lost and depressed once they are married and have nothing else to strive for.
-
Idea of marriage as proof of commitment. Its possible to be 100% commitment and caring without having to declare it to the world. What’s more important, having a partner you can trust, or forcing them to declare their love for you in front of family and friends? If you want to have a big party the honor yourselves, than just have one.
-
The concept that marriage automatically equals a lifetime of enjoyment. I have always felt that marriage is also an artificial respirator for failed relationships. If my girlfriend stops loving me she moves out. We are all sad and there is some issue with what’s her’s and what’s mine, but there are no lawyers and fighting. Futher, if we were married and she stops loving me, how long would she stick around being unhappy, trying to make a marriage work? Would we just end up fighting and cheating for a long time? We both love each other and can see myself spending my life with her. But I am also realistic. People change, goals change. She may want something different, or I may want something different in 10 years, 20 years. It much easier to recognize that and move on if one doesn’t have the expectation and hardship of marriage overhead.
-
The idea that any relationship you have that doesn’t last forever is a waste. I dated a girl for 6 years. We were madly in love, and I had imagined marrying her. Eventually we grew apart, and decided to go our separate ways. It was sad. But, just because it didn’t last doesn’t mean I don’t value the fun, companionship, love, and learning that I got out of it. I can’t think of a better way to spend those 6 years. To me, it’s a much bigger waste of time trapping yourself in a relationship that you don’t want to be in anymore.
See, the not-telling-him part is crucial to avoid you having a suspicion that he was pressured in to it. If you tell him you have an internal “deadline,” then he might feel pressured, and might resent that, and you will always wonder in the back of your mind whether he married you on his own volition, or because he perceived some sort of ultimatum. Telling him you have set a deadline looks too much like an ultimatium. It’s imperative that you keep this to yourself for it to have any true value.
In my last relationship (the 9-year-one) I NEVER mentioned marriage, because I never wanted to be one of those girls (like so many of my friends and acquaintences) who pressured/pestered their guy into marrying them. I wanted it to be 100% my boyfriend’s choice, or else it wouldn’t feel right. By the end though I had set a private internal deadline, and in the end, we broke up before the deadline was up, so it turned out for the best.
What I have learned is that the “clock should start ticking” as soon as you are done with school and have started your career. I would say give it a year from the time you guys are done school and have gotten jobs. If he still hasn’t acted within a year, then he’s not worth one more mili-second of your time.
I see at least a few of benefits to marriage:
-
A declaration to family, friends, acquaintances, strangers, governments, the world that from henceforth, the two of us intent to operate as a social, financial, and legal unit and we want to be treated as such on all three levels. A declaration that any attempted interference with our status as a unit – whether it is by someone who doesn’t like one of us, or lusts after one of us – will be condemned as a social crime.
-
A declaration for our future children that our intention is to provide them with a secure home, support, and childhood.
-
Signing up for a multitude of legal benefits that will help us help each other and will help us stay together as a unit, including inheritance rights, visitation rights, and travel rights. What if we want to go overseas? It is much easier to travel as a couple if you are married than if you are not.
-
A commitment of confidence to each other that we cede to each other the right to make personal, legal, medical, social, financial, and other decision on each others’ behalf.
-
A commitment that we will not let temporary setbacks or brief emotional turns result in breaking up our household and relationship on a whim. It seems to me that the key comfort of someone holding on to not being married is “At any moment, I can decide to pick up and leave and I won’t be faced with a big legal and financial problem.”
And these are just the first few off the top of my head.
It’s definitely not “just a piece of paper” or something that could just as easily be settled by a handshake.
And of course it could all go south, but that’s a risk we take with most decisions in our lives. The key is the nature of our intent and good will.