Male board members, time to give your two cents

In My Humble Opinion
61

No guy wants to feel he is filling the “Okay, I want to get married, and it’s about time, and here you are, so let’s go” role. That’s why my advice to her was to emphasize not her goal of “getting married” (which can make him feel like some kind of sperm donor or something), not her visions of the wedding, etc., but their reciprocal relationship and moving it to the next level because she really uniquely values his qualities and company and never wants to lose them.

Cuts both ways. As others have noted, if the commitment is there anyway, how much does it hurt him to humor her desire for the “meaningless paper and party?”

I was once in the Catch-22 situation that the GF kept picking fights with me, all the time, which (she claimed) were motivated by her desire to “know where the relationship was going.” I answered her quite honestly that I couldn’t see it going anywhere if she couldn’t go two months without pitching a tremendous fit. She said it would be “totally different” if we were engaged or married, because “then there would be a Lifelong Commitment” because “Marriage Is A Beautiful Thing.” She had a lot of maturity problems and was always searching for the Theory Of Everything (which when it wasn’t “Marriage Is A Beautiful Thing And Will Solve Everything Because Of Commitment” was apt to be “Huerta Is The Cause Of All Life’s Problems,” but that’s another story). I told her, unavailingly, that everything I had seen indicated to me that engaged or newlywed couples fought as much, and in the same way, as they did the day before they got engaged. Many women do hold out “Marriage” as a panacea to all life’s and a relationship’s discontents. This is not mature or realistic.

I decried this upthread and women who use the “waste” terminology are creating a false dichotomy based on the theory that their relationship with you cheated them out of the (hypothetical) relationship they could have been having with, say, Prince William, never contemplating that they might also have spent those 2 or 4 or however many years alone with their cats instead of being cosseted by you. It’s not a very attractive or grateful way to summarize a meaningful if not lifelong relationship.

62

Being married will not cause a relationship to succeed. If a relationship fails, the parties will separate, whether they are married or not (unless they insist on living in a failed relationship simply because they were married). The terms of the separation will differ, depending on whether the couple were married or not. In that sense, a marriage is simply a package of contractual terms between the parties that also permits a couple to avail themselves to certain societal benefits.

Beyond the contractual aspect, I question whether getting formally married in in fact any more of a committment to a relationship than simply informally confirming with each other, on an ongoing basis by word and deed, that each is committed to the relationship.

63

I just don’t feel the need to announce or prove my feeling toward someone to all these people.

I admit my feelings could perhaps shift if I decided I wanted kids

Some advantages, I guess. Bt some are reaching - traveling overseas?

I don’t need to be married to have the maturity to not let brief fights or setbacks ruin an otherwise good relationship.

For me its maybe a very little bit of that, but more so a “If anything changes between us I know that the facts of being married - the legal, emotional, social, aspects of being married - won’t stop us from doing what makes us happy even if its a tough decision.”

Its not the number of marriages that end in divorce. Its the ones that should but don’t, or don’t soon enough.

64

I know this is off-topic but I will try to answer Huerta88’s question.

As to why I consider it a “waste:” Well yes we had many many good times and I loved him very much. He is a very good person, but in the end he had kind of an identity crisis and needed to be on his own to figure out what to do with himself.

The first 5 years of our relationship we were in college. After that we were in the finding-jobs, establishing-careers-mode. Then we moved in together and lived together for a year and a half. I always knew I loved him, and I was sure after living together that I wanted him to be my life-partner. But when time kept ticking by, and we didn’t move forward, and no true committment was made, I decided he needed to “shit or get off the pot,” so to say. I never told him this, because if he knew that I had an internal deadline whatever his reaction would have been would be a tainted one.

In the end, when it didn’t work out, I looked back on all those years and felt they had been wasted. Why? Well many reasons. I spent the entirety of college with him; who knows how many other people I could have known or experiences I could have had in that time? These were my early- and mid-20s, I was in the prime of my social life and was looking my best and meeting a lot of people, none of whom I ever had a chance to date because I was already taken. Who knows if one of those potential relationships could have worked out, and I could be happy, committed and stable now? But no, I gave up on many other opportunities to invest in our relationship, in the hopes that it would be a lasting one, and all that investment went to waste.

All those years went by and what do I have to show for it? Memories, some good, some bad, but also a lot of sadness, regret and bitterness. **

When it really comes down to, at least largely for women, is that we only have so many years that we can have a family. After 30, your fertility rates go down, and after 40, chances of birth defects and infertility go way up. So yeah, each year that goes by that we don’t settle down is a year less that we have to reproduce. we don’t have the luxury of biding our time.
** Footnote: ironically enough, about 3 years after we broke up, he showed up again saying that letting me go was the biggest mistake he ever made, and he would do anything to get me back, and he still loved me, blah blah blah. Well not only was I in a new and wonderful relationship, but I was finally over him. While I still cared for him a great deal, the romantic love was completely gone.

65

Because it came so close to meaning that we would not spend the rest of our lives together, when I see now that it’s a great thing. It came so close, in fact, that I would guess if we went through the same thing 100 times, more than 90 of those times we’d never have ended up back together.

lez, he told you you have nothing to worry about. Law school is damned stressful. At least don’t do anything until you can see from a less-crazy perspective.

66

What it really comes down to is this: No self-respecting woman who wants committment and a family should stay a relationship with a guy who isn’t willing to commit. The time you spend hemming and hawing, waiting around hoping he will want to commit would be better spent out “on the market,” trying to meet someone who truly appreciated you and wants to be committed to you.

On a side note, I am 30 and recently have started to feel a little embarassed referring to my “boyfriend,” when many/most people I know my age and younger are referring to their “husband” or “wife.” You begin to wonder, OK why is it that all these other people found mates who are willing to commit? What is wrong with me? Maybe irrational, but a totally understandable feeling.

67

But to me its not “meaningless paper in party.” I am actually of the opinion that marriage is actually a negative not a neutral.

Because instead of looking at my girlfiend (and her at me) everyday knowing that there is nothing keeping her here with me but the love and fun we have, even after a fight, is so much better than looking at my wife (and her at me) and wondering if the only reason she is still here is because of the fact that we are married and she feels she should be.
2 anecdotes:

1 - A friend of mine was dating a guy for about a year. They started talking marriage and looked at rings. All she had ever talked about for years was how marriage was her dream and her goal. But then she started telling her close friends how she wasn’t sure about this guy anymore, how the magic had faded, how she didn’t know if she really loved him that much. Eventually she broke up with him. I have no doubt that if he asked her to marry him a few months earlier she would have said yes, planned the wedding and lived several misearable years with him after.

2 - Another friend who’s GF gave him the ultimatem of marriage or breakup. He married her, because he didn’t want it all to have been a waste and to avoid being alone. He admits it now, its been a few years and he is very unhappy. His entire lust for life is gone. He looks and acts beaten and defeated. He says heis pretty sure if they had not gotten married he would have broken up with eventually.

68

There are already hints of this thread developing into a Mars/Venus “men be this,” “women be this” thingy, so I’m going to respond to Fat Chance with the caption that I am a man who believes that marriage has benefits, and reflects a stronger, more serious type of commitment than a non-marital relationship.

I have an idea of the type of person that you are thinking of, the stereotypical M.R.S. degree seeker who has been planning her wedding since the age of 8 and spends every waking minute worrying about getting married.

But let me describe myself as a person that has always wanted – at some point in my life – to be married. I see it as a desirable, essential part of my life. It provides me a home base for operating in the world, professionally, socially, financially, emotionally, and otherwise. I have a need for my “home” to be a stable, secure, refuge.

Yes, it might be possible, but so what? In general, public acknowledgement of an increasing level on a social level is required at all levels of seriousness of a relationship? What did you think of the guy in junior high who would like to hang out with the girl but would speak to her in public? The guy in high school who would kiss the girl when they were alone, but would pretend not to know her otherwise? The guy in college who would sleep with the girl, but wouldn’t introduce her to others as his girlfriend?

Public acknowledgement and declaration is hard and it’s scary and it can be embarrassing. That’s part of what makes it significant and serious. It’s asking the world to treat the two of you differently than they would otherwise.

Who believes that? I mean, seriously?

Bigger risks can come with bigger potential rewards.

Do you know anyone who has spent not six years, but 30, 40, 50 years together? Many of them end up with more than fond memories of a few fun nights at a bar and a handful of nice screws. And you can bet that few of them got that far without riding through some major crises when they could have walked away from it to save themselves some pain.

69

From CNN, 2002:

The report (PDF): Cohabitation, Marriage, Divorce and Remarriage in the United States.

70

Fair enough. But some people don’t need that or have it as a goal, and it doesn’t mean they can’t be committed loving people. To relate this back to the OP, just because he doesn’t need marriage the way you do, doesn’t mean he is scared or uncommitted or anything.

There is a big difference between hiding your relationship and just not putting it on display.

Huerta’s ex-GF for one. I’ve known others, maybe not to the extent I described it, but surely in the “Once I have a family and a husband and a nice house, I’ll be happy.” kind of way.

What are the bigger rewards?

Not sure what your point is here. I was talking about calling something a “Waste” just because it didn’t last forever. Not sure what your response is supposed to mean.

71

Free advice to the ladies, to be added to my above script:

Do not ever admit, say, hint, or give reason for it to be inferred, that this has anything to do with your eagerness to be married.

No man alive will react positively, and most will react very negatively indeed, to anything that sounds like (or that they think sounds like) “I need to get married [incidentally, to you, I guess, because time’s running short] so my friends/family won’t think I’m a loser.” Men do not want to be viewed as accessories or social proof. Men think that women are herd creatures and do not view a herd impulse as in any way a legitimate reason for them to alter their thought process. Men think women tend to accessorize and no man really wants to be the Ken doll who keeps Barbie from being dissed by those other biatches.

I know it’s natural to feel this way, but just as your b.f. has to be discreet in not speaking (or acting on) his desire to bone the barmaid at his favorite pub, you need to keep this particular factor tightly under wraps.

YMMV, but I doubt it – this is one of the factors (the Bridezilla Princess wedding is probably the only one that’s mentioned as frequently) that guys talk about with true anger and scorn when they discuss “Yeah, my GF’s giving me a hard time about getting married, just because all her shallow friends are” over beers. There’s some legitimacy to this view, because implicit in the “peer pressure” position by the girl is “You know, I wouldn’t be so into you if my other friends weren’t getting married.” Not so flattering.

72

That might be the saddest most messed up thing I have read. To think that everything that doesn’t last forever or work or perfectly is a waste is a terrible way to live.

73

You may think it’s sad, but to me, it’s just being realistic and honest. To me, what’s sad is that the relationship ended the way it did, with a lot of hurt on both ends.

74

Can’t post too long righ tnow (at work, eek!), but I just wanted to say really quickly, this is EXACTLY how I am feeling right now.

75

And kudos to you for your honesty–I feel the same way about my marriage, which is on life support and soon to be removed even from that…
I cannot write off all the years as a “waste”–I have 3 healthy, reasonably happy children. I can say I learned alot.

What is lacking (and has been since early on) is a sharing of lives, of day to day trials and triumphs, a sense of camraderie and fellowship --heck, friendship. No, he wasn’t like that when I married him, although looking back, I can now see signs that I couldn’t or didn’t read at 24 (which is too damned young to get married).

There is a part of me that has been wasted on a person who does not love me, and most likely does not even like me. Christ yes, that is a waste–of me. Not to be excruciatingly obvious, but this is not a dress rehearsal. Yes, I chose badly–and I live with those consequences every day. To now be castigated for labelling that a “waste” is a bit much. I could have been doing all manner of things, but for him. Harsh? You bet-but honest.

It is incredibly hard to dance alone when you want a partner. I’ve tried it for 18 years now–I am done.

to the OP: I say give him (in your head) one calendar year. And if he is still of the same mind, then it is time for you to move on–to the future that is important to YOU. A clarifying talk (just one) as delineated above would be good, as well.

Never, NEVER think he’ll change after marriage, or it’ll “get better” or “that won’t happen to us”–it all will and then where will you be? Maybe with a resentful, pressured spouse. Don’t waste your life–don’t lose today by betting on tomorrow.

76

I think you don’t understand nyctea’s view towards “waste” because you may be more of a live-in-the-moment type of feller. That kind of outlook allows you to not see every relationship and experience as a road to a particular destination, which is fine, for you. For someone who is goal-oriented and who has their eyes on the horizon and not just on the ground in front of them, investing a lot of time into someone becomes a disppointment if the experience doesn’t bring them closer to their goals in life. There’s nothing with that. Not everyone wants to be in their late 30s and 40s still roaming the streets for a hook-up.

For me, I can argue both sides of the marriage debate. I recently ended a 2 year relationship with someone whom I loved and had hoped to marry, but things didn’t work out. We broke up. Surprisingly, though, I’m not all that upset about it because I don’t view that experience as a waste at all. I’m not a live-in-the-moment person but when it comes to relationships, I’m not extremely goal-oriented either. I’m somewhere in between. If kids were not a goal of mind, the whole marriage thing would probably rate at the bottom of my priorities.

To lezlers, I think you already know what you should do. Make sure he knows where you stand and if he loves you, he will give you what you want. I like the idea of the two of you sitting down and having a open discussion about it, and then agreeing to rediscuss it in 6 or so months. For now, try not to stress. Whatever will be, will be.

77

I can’t remember ever agreeing with nyctea in my life before, but I do agree with that.

78

This, however, I can’t do. We graduate next May. After that, we take the bar. We’re taking the bar at separate times (I’m taking it in July, he’s doing it in Feb) so one of us can pay the bill while the other studies. By the time that’s done and we both find jobs, a good 2 to 3 years (from now) will likely have passed. I’m not willing to wait that long before even starting the clock.

And for the poster who asked about my relationship with his daughter on the first page, we get along wonderfully. In fact, because he works weekends, when she visits us she ends up spending more time with me than with him. Everything is all good with us. She’s actually asked me if we’re ever going to get married. :eek:

79

I know the feeling well!

Some have said above (see quote below) that you shuldn’t feel this way because you shouldn’t care what others think, etc. But for me, it’s not that I care what others think. I care because of what I think. I feel embarassed that I’m a grown 30-year old woman and I have a boyfriend. Get it? It makes me feel like something is very wrong with me or with my partner that many/most people our age feel it is a natural and normal part of life to find a mate and settle down and they WANT to do it, yet in my life, it’s such a foreign distant concept…

Most anyone would feel worried if they felt something was very wrong or abnormal in their life.

By the way, whereas men don’t want to be viewed as accessories, or whatever, women do not want to feel like they are being used as a warm body to screw until something else better comes along that is good enough for them to want to settle down. Women don’t have the luxury of biding their time. Unlike men like Sean Connery, Harrison Ford, etc. women in their late 40s and 50s aren’t really considered “hot” in our society (with a very few rare examples).

80

And that is fair. Just remember that for most men, including I venture yours, there is a shocking (to you) lack of corellation between friends getting married and family members asking them about marriage, and the desire/need to get married (or, think of it backwards; the thought of getting married might never cross his mind, but then, after every single one of his friends is hitched and seems to be happy, he may say, well, I guess it can’t be that bad, oh, all right).

Her: Oh, look, all my friends are getting married, they’re so happy.
Him: That’s nice. But what on Earth does that have to do with us?

Both are being sincere. Neither’s impulse/thought process is “illegitimate” because in both cases they are borne of hardwired and socially-programmed imperatives/algorithms that have respective benefits for them (and society). Little boys do not, ever, grow up dreaming of their wedding. Little girls usually do. So, you get what we have here.

The tricky part is distinguishing between the “natural” reluctance and the “this is a serious problem, he’s never going to give me what I want” reluctance.