Male board members, time to give your two cents

[Risha]

Originally Posted by nyctea scandiaca

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Chance
That might be the saddest most messed up thing I have read. To think that everything that doesn’t last forever or work or perfectly is a waste is a terrible way to live.

You may think it’s sad, but to me, it’s just being realistic and honest. To me, what’s sad is that the relationship ended the way it did, with a lot of hurt on both ends.

I understand why you’re saying what you’re saying, Fat Chance, but I think that nyctea scandiaca’s position is an honest one, and she doesn’t deserve scorn for it. She wanted to get married to this man. It’s something that she values, is important to her. He didn’t want to marry her. So she gained something from those years, but ultimately not enough to make up for what he refused to give her. Not only did she not receive what she valued most from him, but he actively took away the possibility of her getting it from someone else.

I’ve noticed that women are more prone to this sort of zero-sum analysis then men are.

I’m married and about to turn 30. My biological clock has been ticking for a couple of years, but my husband wants to wait until we’re out of debt (which I’ve reluctantly conceeded to be a reasonable position). He’s well aware of how important children are to me, though. I’ve agreed not to bring it up again for another year, but I’m agonizingly aware of my failing fertility. If he came to me at the end of this year and told me that he decided that he never wanted children, that would be a betrayal of massive proportions - not only preventing me from having children with him, the man I love, but also probably preventing me from ever having them at all. In such a situation, I would consider those years a waste as well. Not to mention I would want to beat the s*** out of him.

S***, I just terrified myself. He wouldn’t do that to me, he wouldn’t do that to me…

[lezlers]

@Huerta88

The tricky part is distinguishing between the “natural” reluctance and the “this is a serious problem, he’s never going to give me what I want” reluctance.

And this is my problem and the reason I started this thread.

[Green_Cymbeline]

@lezlers

This, however, I can’t do. We graduate next May. After that, we take the bar. We’re taking the bar at separate times (I’m taking it in July, he’s doing it in Feb) so one of us can pay the bill while the other studies. By the time that’s done and we both find jobs, a good 2 to 3 years (from now) will likely have passed. I’m not willing to wait that long before even starting the clock.

That’s a toughie. I would give to you the same advice I gave to my dearest cousin…

She is in her mid-20s and dating a guy for over 2 years now. It was long-distance, Virginia-to-England for one and a half of those years. She recently moved to England to live with him on a 6-month visa, but unless she finds a real job that will sponsor her (which is much harder than you think), she will have to leave after 6 months…

They are getting along wonderfully, and seem to be in love, but as the 6 months draws to an end, the only way she will be able to stay is if they get married. But he is dragging his feet. He doesn’t know “if he is ready.” She says if she has to move back to the US and start doing the transatlantic thing again, she’ll have to end it.

I told her, you have been with this guy over 2 years, you moved to England for him… if he really loves you and wants to be with you, he will marry you. If not, then move on! Don’t waste any more of your time and effort. If the guy can’t make a decision after more than 2 years, then he’s not worth dedicating yourself to.

It’s a terribly hard situation, but I just wish I had ended my relationship years earlier, instead of wating for the committment that never came. In the long run, it would have been so much easier on me.

[bup]

@lezlers

I told him a little while ago that I wasn’t expecting it to happen anytime soon but if he honestly had no intentions of ever getting married I deserved to know… To this, he replied I had nothing (he stressed the word, not me) to worry about.

…he was with his ex for a very long time and never married her, no matter how much she pressured him. To this, he replied that he knew it would never work between them, he was together with her for those years because they had a child and that our relationship is different.

Do you trust him? If not, it’ll never work anyway. If you do, he’s already answered you.
BTW, try not to read the google ads below this thread.

[Huerta88]

@nyctea scandiaca

By the way, whereas men don’t want to be viewed as accessories, or whatever, women do not want to feel like they are being used as a warm body to screw until something else better comes along that is good enough for them to want to settle down. Women don’t have the luxury of biding their time. Unlike men like Sean Connery, Harrison Ford, etc. women in their late 40s and 50s aren’t really considered “hot” in our society (with a very few rare examples).

Fair enough. To continue along the lines/generalizations you rightly note about biological imperatives/shelf life issues – it is a structural problem in the dating/mating marketplace that (very broadly speaking) the qualities that give women power and options (youth, fertility, looks) come to them young, and the qualities that give men power and desirability (authority, confidence, career success) come to them later. I know a lot of 30 year old women whose attitude is: Well, the last fifteen years of being belle of the ball has been fun, but now it’s time for serious stuff. And the 30 year old guys are saying: Man, my career’s finally taking off, I know how to not come across as a callow youth – finally, I’ve got some options with the hot young chicks who wanted nothing to do with me when I was a lowly social retard grad student!

The human condition, in all its tragic splendor.

[Tastes_of_Chocolate]

@mrklutz

I am part of a circle of friends that have stayed close in the nearly 20 years since college. Of the entire group, the most well-adjusted, longest-lasting, domestically stable couple is the couple who are not actually married. They have owned many homes together, have moved from city to city together, and would be what I would hold up as a wonderful example of a married couple – except that they’re not legally married.

Chalk this date up on your calendar. It’s probably the only time you will ever see me called stable and well-adjusted. I’m the friend that mrklitz is talking about. My SO and I have been living together for 13 and a half years now. We’ve been through all the kinds of things that long-term partners go through. Most of our neighbors and co-workers assume we are married.

Why aren’t we married? It’s never been a big deal for us. While there has been lots of pressure from my parents to get married, neither one of us sees it as a big deal. We know we are committed to each other. We don’t need someone else to say some magic words to make it so. Signing a piece of paper won’t change how we feel about each other. There just hasn’t been a benefit to getting married (other then getting to throw a party for our friends). Heck, at this point, I’m not convinced that seperating would even be any easier without a marriage. After several mortgages, shared bank accounts, common stock holdings and listing each other as beneficiaries, it would probably take as much work as a divorce.

So I can see where your boyfriend is coming from. For some people it is true. A marriage license really is just a piece of paper.

I also don’t understand the “I’ve wasted the last 10 years” attitude. Even if my SO and I broke up today, I wouldn’t have wasted those years. We have had a wonderful time together, and nothing will change that. To say that time was wasted, implies that you spent that time waiting for something else to happen, not living/enjoying what you have.

[Green_Cymbeline]

@Risha

I understand why you’re saying what you’re saying, Fat Chance, but I think that nyctea scandiaca’s position is an honest one, and she doesn’t deserve scorn for it. She wanted to get married to this man. It’s something that she values, is important to her. He didn’t want to marry her. So she gained something from those years, but ultimately not enough to make up for what he refused to give her. Not only did she not receive what she valued most from him, but he actively took away the possibility of her getting it from someone else.

I’ve noticed that women are more prone to this sort of zero-sum analysis then men are.

I’m married and about to turn 30. My biological clock has been ticking for a couple of years, but my husband wants to wait until we’re out of debt (which I’ve reluctantly conceeded to be a reasonable position). He’s well aware of how important children are to me, though. I’ve agreed not to bring it up again for another year, but I’m agonizingly aware of my failing fertility. If he came to me at the end of this year and told me that he decided that he never wanted children, that would be a betrayal of massive proportions - not only preventing me from having children with him, the man I love, but also probably preventing me from ever having them at all. In such a situation, I would consider those years a waste as well. Not to mention I would want to beat the s*** out of him.

S***, I just terrified myself. He wouldn’t do that to me, he wouldn’t do that to me…

Wow, thank you so much for understanding and putting it so eloquently, Risha.
I think the major disconnect between men and women is twofold:

(1) Women naturally want to feel secure and settled-down. Probably has some sort of evolutionary advantage since women are the main caretakers of children, and being secure and settled increases the chances of the offspring surviving.

Men have a tendency to want to wander around, “spreading their seed,” so to speak.

(2) Women only have so many childbearing years. Like it or not, it’s a fact. As men hem and haw the years away, biding their time deciding if they want to commit or not, our ovaries and egg cells are getting older and older and less viable.

I don’t want to end up childless someday and look back at the years I spent with my ex and think I could have met someone else in that time who would have married me and given me children. You only live once, you only get one chance. Time is limited. Sucks, but it’s just reality.

[Triskadecamus]

I know everyone thinks my “just leave” is some expression of vengeance, or extortion. The reason I said just leave is to make it clear that that was not the intent.

He might decide that you leaving was not what he wanted. But, do you really want to “convince” someone to marry you? Do you want to be the member of this relationship who sets the limits, and defines the priorities? Would you prefer a relationship of equals?

Just leave. Don’t slam the door, or make him your ex. Let him know why you are giving up a relationship you wanted, and still value. You want a marriage. He doesn’t. You don’t want to blackmail him into a marriage, because that won’t give either of you what you want. If he decides after you leave that he was wrong, and he does want a marriage, then you both get to consider if that is what you want together, and as equals.

You are a person. You are not just a woman looking for a husband. You want a marriage, not a husband. It isn’t settling, or coercing. Finding a marriage is not likely if you continue to play house with someone who doesn’t want a marriage. I should make that stronger, finding a marriage is never going to happen until you find someone who wants to be your partner in a marriage. Leaving this relationship does not prevent that same man from discovering that he does in fact want that same thing. But it does not make you the one in charge of defining the relationship. You look for what you want in the world. So does he.

It is blunt. It is not harsh. Just leave.

Tris

[lezlers]

@nyctea scandiaca

It’s a terribly hard situation, but I just wish I had ended my relationship years earlier, instead of wating for the committment that never came. In the long run, it would have been so much easier on me.

Yup. That’s why I’m so obsessive over it now. I think it would be easier on me to leave within the next year, then to wait for 2 or 5 or however many else before I finally get fed up.

Tris, I’m sorry, but I’m not going to leave him. Like I said before, I’m deeply in love with this man and love living with him. I’m not willing to walk away without at least giving him an opportunity to give me what I need.

Tastes of Chocolate, again, I’m not here to debate the merits of marriage. It’s something I want and need and that’s not going to change.

[Fish]

@nyctea scandiaca

(1) Women naturally want to feel secure and settled-down. …
Men have a tendency to want to wander around, “spreading their seed,” so to speak.

I would just like to say that these stereotypes are responsible for enough broken marriages without perpetuating them. Men sometimes use this as an excuse to cheat, and say “I can’t help it!”; women can use this as an excuse to cheat and claim that “you made me do it.” That doesn’t mean the stereotype is true.

Men are not inherently unfaithful any more than women are naturally or inherently pristine good little girls who never think about anyone other than their husbands.

Both men and women both have a natural tendency to wander in a relationship when they aren’t satisfied. Both men and women can resist the temptation if they desire.

They just aren’t satisfied by the same things, that’s all.

[Linty_Fresh]

@acsenray

My theory is that most men know almost immediately whether they want to marry a particular person.

Couldn’t disagree with you more. I had to think long and hard before I married Mrs. Fresh. I made the right decision in marrying her, but saying that I knew from the beginning that I wanted to marry her would be a huge exaggeration. Don’t get me wrong, I was–and am–crazy about her, but that whole commitment thing threw me for a loop. It took a couple of years to make up my mind

Along those lines, I see opinions all across the spectrum here, and I think there’s a good reason for that. lezler’s boyfriend’s statements and actions can be interpreted in a variety of ways through a variety of viewpoints. We simply don’t have enough information about the guy to offer constructive advice.

Hell, I said pretty much the same thing to Mrs. Fresh regarding marriage. I said that I didn’t believe in it, that I wasn’t ready for it, that I’d never be mature enough. I joked about never getting married all the time with her. Less than three years after that spiel, we were engaged. Of course, I do know guys who said that and didn’t get married, so it works both ways.

I guess I can’t offer much advice, because I find the whole situation pretty murky with the information given, but I feel I should mention this from the perspective of a guy: Be careful about pushing him. If you must give him an ultimatum, do it straightforward and up front. Note that many guys (myself included) consider the ultimatum in and of itself the immediate death knell of the relationship, so be prepared to say goodbye.

(Note that nothing you’ve posted in here or anything else suggests that you need the following warning, lezlers, but I feel I should give it to you, because I consider it important.)

Whatever you do, don’t try to manipulate him or trick him into doing anything he doesn’t really want to do. Don’t try any shit you see in a Joan Collins movie. If you’re lucky, it’ll fail and he’ll just walk away from the relationship. If you’re unlucky, you will quickly find yourself in an unhappy marriage to a very resentful husband.

[Linty_Fresh]

Whoops, forgot to mention that I’ve been happily married for the past 8 years.

[lezlers]

@you with the face

To lezlers, I think you already know what you should do. Make sure he knows where you stand and if he loves you, he will give you what you want. I like the idea of the two of you sitting down and having a open discussion about it, and then agreeing to rediscuss it in 6 or so months. For now, try not to stress. Whatever will be, will be.

I like the idea as well. So far, our conversations on the topic (after he makes some comment, I never bring it up), have consisted of me saying very carefully as to not scare him off, “you know you’re gonna have to marry me someday if you want to keep me” and him giving a heavy sigh and replying “It hasn’t been that long, relax.” Then I get all paranoid that I’m being pushy and don’t say anything else. He’ll then periodically make comments about how he sees no benefit in marriage, that it’s just a piece of paper and he thinks 40 is a good age, if ever (knowing full well I am NOT waiting 7 years) and that there’s no difference between what we have now and being married. Then, whenever anyone asks him about it in front of me, he turns white as a sheet. And lets not forget about how bummed out he gets whenever another one of his freinds gets engaged or married (3 of them in the time we’ve been together.) It’s like, he’ll make comments meant to lead me to believe we’re going to eventually get married to keep me placated until the next time I get antsy.

So, I obviously need to do something different. Perhaps not letting him weasle out of another conversation about the topic with his “relax” routine. Thing is, he seems to be answering my questions (i.e. “relax”), but at the same time, not really answering them(with the anti-marriage comments). He teases me all the time and I can’t quite figure out how much of it is teasing and how much of it is serious.

[lezlers]

Forgot to add, he knows full well where I stand on the issue. I just don’t know where he stands, if he intends on marrying me eventually and is just not ready yet, or if he doesn’t want to get married at all and is just trying to hold onto me as long as he can or hopes to eventually change my mind on the topic.

[Triskadecamus]

[QUOTE=lezlers]
Tris, I’m sorry, but I’m not going to leave him. Like I said before, I’m deeply in love with this man and love living with him. I’m not willing to walk away without at least giving him an opportunity to give me what I need.

[QUOTE]
Don’t be sorry. I hope you get what you need. Blessings to you both.

Tris

[Green_Cymbeline]

@Fish

I would just like to say that these stereotypes are responsible for enough broken marriages without perpetuating them. Men sometimes use this as an excuse to cheat, and say “I can’t help it!”; women can use this as an excuse to cheat and claim that “you made me do it.” That doesn’t mean the stereotype is true.

Men are not inherently unfaithful any more than women are naturally or inherently pristine good little girls who never think about anyone other than their husbands.

Both men and women both have a natural tendency to wander in a relationship when they aren’t satisfied. Both men and women can resist the temptation if they desire.

They just aren’t satisfied by the same things, that’s all.

What I said was an attempt to explain what Huerta88 said here:

Neither’s impulse/thought process is “illegitimate” because in both cases they are borne of hardwired and socially-programmed imperatives/algorithms that have respective benefits for them (and society). Little boys do not, ever, grow up dreaming of their wedding. Little girls usually do. So, you get what we have here.

Ok, why is it that girls grow up dreaming of being married and boys don’t?

I theorized that it’s somehow ingrained in us by evolution… Women are more likely to desire marriage because women have more of a tendency to want to settle down and be in a stable situation… it’s been more advantageous to them over the millenia.

Men on the other hand don’t grow up dreaming of their wedding day. It seems men have more of a reluctance to to settle down. Maybe it’s because men have less of a desire to be in a stable situation, they’re more likely to want to “spread their seed,” because somehow that has been ingrained in men over millions of years of evolution.

What are some other explanations as to why women are more eager to get married? We hear scenarios like the OP’s all the time, and it’s almost always the women who wants to marry and the man who drags his feet, not the other way around. Why is it this way? What are some real reasons?

[dmatsch]

@lightingtool

(On preview, in response to Triskadecamus: DON’T leave. You say you love this man - why the hell would you throw that away because of one disagreement? Don’t waste what could be the rest of your life with a man who cares for you. Talk it over - many times - and think about it from his perspective and yours.

Thank you. Walking out on a loving relationship over this issue is a mistake in the most extreme. As I said before, a gift such as this relationship is rare and should not be taken lightly. What ever happened to compromise?

Most of the responses here (mainly from women) say “if he doesn’t conform to your wishes, leave him.” What a load of crock. How dare you give this woman this possible life-changing advice?

This kind of shit was the primary cause of the failure of my latest marriage. A bunch of uneducated (in the professional heathcare sense), unqualified, anonymous message board folk giving half-assed opinions as advice to an emotionally hurt person who desparately needed professional relationship advice involving someone *actually *trained in this field.

Does his wishes and desires in life mean nothing to you? Do you not care one thing about he feels? Can you not come to a happy medium? Is this not what relationships are all about?

Given the fact that so many here are urging you to make ultimatums to your SO is why the divorce rate is so high in this country. That is not what relationships are about.

Stay with your man as long as he is good to you. Who cares whether or not you two have a piece of paper?

Isn’t it all about love and partnership, anyway?

Please let me repeat that: Isn’t it all about love, compromise and partnership anyway?

[Fish]

@lezlers

So far, our conversations on the topic (after he makes some comment, I never bring it up), have consisted of me saying very carefully as to not scare him off, “you know you’re gonna have to marry me someday if you want to keep me” and him giving a heavy sigh and replying “It hasn’t been that long, relax.”

If you ask me, he’s not answering you at all. He’s saying what he must to make you shut up about it.

He’s giving you a logical answer to dodge the issue when what you want is an emotional discussion. And you’re letting him get away with it, by letting him establish a logical grounds for the argument: you have no logic to back up your emotions — who does? — so this makes you feel like you somehow lost (and importantly, makes him feel as if he won).

By telling you to relax he’s trying to make it your fault that you want to be married, that there’s something abnormal about you for wanting it.

Don’t buy it.

Discuss the whole thing with him. Let him set the date that you’ll talk about it again. Many men, though not all, don’t think quickly about their emotions, or self-analyze, or hold impromptu conversations about feelings — give him the time to digest it and make him decide when it’ll come up again. That puts all the elements of the conversation under his control and he won’t feel as much pressure.

Whatever date he sets (provided it isn’t “someday” or “ask me in 10 years” or something else evasive) then you stick to it like glue. Just don’t remind him of it every 30 minutes.

You might also consider reading some books on relationships; what I’m seeing here is not uncommon and some additional insight might help. I can recommend an author I like if it’d help.

[dmatsch]

@lezlers

Yup. That’s why I’m so obsessive over it now. I think it would be easier on me to leave within the next year, then to wait for 2 or 5 or however many else before I finally get fed up.

Is the exact opposite statement of the following:

@lezlers

Tris, I’m sorry, but I’m not going to leave him. Like I said before, I’m deeply in love with this man and love living with him. I’m not willing to walk away without at least giving him an opportunity to give me what I need.

What about what he needs?

@lezlers

Tastes of Chocolate, again, I’m not here to debate the merits of marriage. It’s something I want and need and that’s not going to change.

Sounds like you already have got an ultimatum, he just doesn’t know about it yet. Thanks for perpetuating the stereotype. Best of luck to you. May you find the prince that will make you Happy Ever After.

[Green_Cymbeline]

@dmatsch

Sounds like you already have got an ultimatum, he just doesn’t know about it yet. Thanks for perpetuating the stereotype. Best of luck to you. May you find the prince that will make you Happy Ever After.

Hey, why should she have to give up something that is of extreme importance to her?

In any relationship, you have to “pick your battles.” It really comes down to, weighing how much something means to Partner A and how something means to Partner B… If lezlers puts extreme importance on marriage, how does the weight of that compare to the importance her boyfriend puts on NOT getting married? That is something they will have to figure out. And he needs to be more communicative so lezlers had enough information t o make a decision.

Basically, he must weigh how important it is to him to (1) not get married and (2) keep lezlers in his life. Then compare the weight of the two and make a choice. he can’t have it both ways.

Call it an ultimatium, call it whatever you want. This decision process is how we all make most of the decisions in our lives - about schools, jobs, relationships, even down to small things such as comparing and contrasting products at the grocery store. You have the weigh the pros and cons and make a choice.