Male Centrism at the Dope

[Broomstick]

@octopus

But a few adolescent or sexual threads isn’t that off putting.

Correction.

They are not off-putting TO YOU. As this thread shows, they are in fact off-putting to some other people.

[Beckdawrek]

@Broomstick

Correction.

They are not off-putting TO YOU. As this thread shows, they are in fact off-putting to some other people.

If it were adolescent boys behaving badly, it may not be off-putting. I may feel the need to correct them, though.
But, guess what? Grown men shouldn’t act like adolescent boys.

[begbert2]

@octopus

Last post before I have to cook dinner and do some cleaning.

Opinion 3! A small amount of subjectively distasteful content is something we all need to deal with. We don’t need crayons, Play-Doh, or sky screaming because different people want to discuss different things. And finally if the amount currently in existence is too much bring it up in ATMB and ask for more content restrictions. But threats probably won’t work .

Of the posts on this website, only a very small percentage of them call you a moronic racist sexist fucktard.

Therefore, since a small amount of subjectively distasteful content is something we all need to deal with, such posts shouldn’t bother you when they do occur.

Well, that, or your argument is complete and total bullshit. You are not the authority on what is offensive to others; you are only the authority on what is offensive to you. By dismissing the concerns of women by blowing off their concerns about the culture here as small or petty, you’re not actually showing that their concerns are small or petty, because you are not the authority on what is offensive to others. No, all you show with such a dismissal is that you are selfish and possibly (probably) a sexist.

[chaika]

I completely agree with the premise of the OP. Much as I appreciate many of the voices here and much of the debate, the sexism and boys’ club mentality can be overwhelming at times. Yes, yes, NAMALT. But as others have pointed out, the board culture can be discouraging in its assumptions. I can only speak for myself (obviously), but this culture is precisely why I post rarely and take frequent breaks from the Dope.

Thank you for raising this issue, Sunny Daze.

[Aspenglow]

I add my agreement, Sunny Daze. It really can be appalling at times. As both a comparative new member and a female, I would echo the concerns of many others who have spoken in this thread.

It’s hard to stick around as a new female member with the reflexive disdain afforded to most by the prevailing male fraternity.

[Guinastasia]

@octopus

Yeah. A Betty vs Veronica thread isn’t abusing women. Skald and his surprise hypotheticals have an appropriate rule that I supported.

What I’m seeing is a loud and organized in-group that would like to bully and insult others into silence and/or acquiescence. Where this in-group can decide who and what can be offensive and how while arbitrarily piling on convenient targets of ridicule and derision. I say call the bluff.

They use words like misogynistic or bigot, not as accurate descriptors, but as a cudgel to shut down conversation and put the target on the perpetual defensive. The tactics are transparent. Thankfully, we aren’t subjected to a double standard in the pit and we can respond appropriately.

If they were sincere the thread would be in ATMB and would contain some actionable solutions. Smart Aleq inadvertently tipped the motivation. Now it’s time for the obfuscation to commence.

YOU’RE the one who keeps complaining about everyone’s “potty mouths” because sometimes you let your kids read what you’re posting. But now WE’RE the bad guys because we ask people not to act like dicks towards women?

[fervour]

@fervour

(I think I used ellipses correctly)

I think that we have the same fears. I was forced out of the closet. I posted. The board support helped me threw a hard time. I’ve always tried to be/do right.

But I can’t Darwinize my siblings. To be clear, I have a lot of white privilege. But to exercise it I have to pretend to be something I am not. I DO EXERCISE IT. Damn.

The horror. The horror.

Jesus! Is that Eastern time? Central time? Pacific time? GMT?-----I wrote this post long ago and don’t know how to post it.

.

That shithead, octopus, said something, but Monstro said she was staying with us. And I’m, “YES! A win!” we win when Monstro posts. But she isnlt a Unity.

[Ambivalid]

@monstro

I appreciate the kind words. But I am not intending on leaving. There have been times when I have entertained the thought, though.

I really don’t know what the solution is. I just don’t think telling posters to skip over content they don’t like is a satisying response if the goal here to maintain a diverse, interesting set of posters.

I feel, personally at least, that you add significant value by staying and participating on these forums for the exact same reasons I sometimes cannot stand you as a poster: whatever opinion I may have in the moment, I must respect the intelligence, expression and perspective you bring to all your posts here. That’s a long-winded way of saying it’s the very fact that i often disagree with you that make you such a valuable poster, IMO. Sure, i can (and do) disagree with a shit-ton of people and posters. But disagreeing with someone that i also recognize has taught me things in the past keeps my contrarianism in check and my mind open.

Now as far as the overall problem related by the OP, the only thing i can think of is matching voices with voices. Don’t let the loudmouths hog the spotlight. So often, in so many scenarios, that is unfortunately exactly what happens however. Then the general public, hearing only the loudest loud mouths on the extremes, will draw the not-unreasonable conclusion that the loudmouths represent all of that community.

That doesnt have to happen here. Drown out the misogyny with non-misogyny (however that be expressed) and dont back down or have a thin skin.

[JackieLikesVariety]

I think that this thread has sparked some interesting discussion. It remains my hope that discussion will help us move forward to better understanding of each other.

it’s gone much better than i’d hoped and I thank you for putting in all the work on the OP and all subsequent posts.

Grown men shouldn’t act like adolescent boys.

preach it, Beckdawrek!

[raventhief]

ATMB is appropriate when discussing moderation. If board culture, calling out specific examples, then BBQ Pit is where we must go. It’s not appropriate to cite specific posters, as I understand the rules, anywhere else, unless moderation is the topic.

[SmartAleq]

@Beckdawrek

If it were adolescent boys behaving badly, it may not be off-putting. I may feel the need to correct them, though.
But, guess what? Grown men shouldn’t act like adolescent boys.

Grown men should most especially not be insisting upon their absolute right to act in such a shitty manner that actual adolescent boys would be Picard-facepalming and saying “Oh…dude…no…” especially if they are so focused and intent on saying their piece that you can basically see the spittle flying out of your screen.

And good for you for admitting you learned something–there are some people on this board who would do well to emulate your example. I’d give you a thumbs up but this place is smilie deficient.

[Lamia]

Well, this thread has moved quickly.

Sunny Daze, I’ve had to skim a bit to catch up, but I appreciate your starting this thread. The atmosphere on this board is often unwelcoming for women. For those who’ve quibbled with Sunny’s list of threads, the evidence that women often feel unwelcome here isn’t a list of threads. It’s the number of women who’ve said they don’t feel welcome here.

I’ll echo this excellent post from Manda Jo:

@MandaJo

Here’s the disconnect. You think this thread is about your post in ATMB and your experiences. You think the question on the table is "are the men on the SDMB culpable? Ought they change? " That’s a male-centric point of view. It assumes the point of interest is the male agent and his choices/responsibilities/experience. But the issue on the table is really what is the female experience like on the SDMB? "

I recently took a little break from the boards due partially to RL issues but also because I was frustrated with the male centrism and outright sexism. When I returned in the midst of the recent Skald controversy, I almost turned right back around again. For those who say “Just ignore it”, well, since we’re in the Pit I can say that a number of posters in this thread are already on my ignore list. I added another a few minutes ago, then thought “I could ignore them even better by not coming here at all.”

I’ve been a Doper for nearly 20 years and as long as the SDMB is still around I doubt I’ll give it up altogether, but it may be time for a lengthier break. Especially since I’ve increasingly felt that there’s little point in posting about many of the topics that interest me. This post of SmartAleq’s describes an experience all-too-familiar to me:

@SmartAleq

I especially like the suggestion of “well, women need to post more threads so they’ll see stuff they like!” Know how that goes? You have an idea for a thread that’s more female centric, a question you’d like to see a consensus on, maybe some commiseration on a problem you, as a woman, are very familiar with. You go so far as to start composing the OP–and then you start thinking about what the response is going to be, and who’s likely to show up in the first ten seconds, and what they’re probably going to say and how much of a fucking slog it’s going to be to try to winnow anything useful or amusing out of that mire of shit you know is ready and eager to pour out into your unsuspecting thread. You know what it’s going to be because you’ve read countless similar threads and every single one has gone to shit because of the toxic masculinity boy’s club cadre and you think about how tiring it is to deal with that and do you really want to try to shepherd your little thread through it and make something of it. And the answer is almost always “Oh, no, just fuck this shit.” And you post that OP on a subreddit or another message board where you know it’ll get some care and attention.

Multiply that x a million and you have the female experience of the Durp.

It’s depressing to think now the variety of topics I’ve limited myself from posting about because I didn’t want to deal with the “toxic masculinity boy’s club cadre” (not the catchiest name, but accurate). I actually just wrote another three paragraphs and decided it wasn’t worth it. The only people who’d care would be the people who already get it.

[Lasciel]

I agree with all the other women who’ve posted. I feel the same way, I notice the same things, and I feel like it’s a giant slog to deal with on the regular.

I do however have a suggestion for a possible info-gathering project.

One of the insidious parts is that it’s rarely something egregious that’s the real issue - it’s usually just dealing with allllllll the constant little slurs and ‘joking’ lighthearted attacks about being female, and specific phrasings and ‘jokes’ and threadjackings.

So what happens if all of us still reading this Pit thread pledge to actually report all that ‘minor’ bullshit that we usually DO just ignore or move on past? Do the mods (if any are reading) think that having more info about what sorts of things we’re talking about would help matters?

I’d suggest something along the lines or ‘reported for being gross/sexist/threadjacking/being annoying’ as an actual post, and despite the DNFTT rule, you guys who want to help; I really do think that in this, actual MEN calling out other men on being shitstains (even minor shitstains) has a really solid impact. I know it takes a lot of guts to be the guy who is the buzzkill, but a solid ‘bro, that’s not cool’ goes a long damn way.

Does anyone think more reporting/collected info will help anything? Because imma be honest, I think most of us women here really don’t feel like it will help, so we’re either resigned to wading through the shit or we just drift off and stop participating. I guess I’m still stubborn, but even thought it’s my idea, I grant that there’s no point drowning the mods in minor reports if they don’t feel up to possibly eventually strapping up the jackboots and more intensely moderating this sort of crap as it happens.

I’m reporting this post for mod attention.

[Chimera]

I know some of you don’t like me and more than a few think I’m an asshole (which I readily admit), but if someone needs a man to call out another man in a thread because he isn’t listening to the women, or they don’t feel comfortable calling attention to themselves (which I totally get, but hey, I’m an asshole who talks out of turn)…

Then I’m your man. Just PM me.

[Bone]

I always encourage reports. Talking about issues is also good.

[Chimera]

Wow, ok, I know it was from a movie, but I found this post creepy and unnecessary. Not a NSWF tag needed, but you have been warned.

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21003039&postcount=34

:o

[Guinastasia]

@BigT

Again, I am a full-on feminist.

No, you’re not. You’re just a self-righteous, patronizing jagoff.

[Sunny_Daze]

One thing that I hope results from this is that the women who have come forward to say that they are posting less, or taking breaks, will start posting again. Reporting is an option, so is the Pit. PM me or Chimera if you rather not be in the spotlight, neither one of us is shy.

[Happy_Lendervedder]

@Aspenglow

I add my agreement, Sunny Daze. It really can be appalling at times. As both a comparative new member and a female, I would echo the concerns of many others who have spoken in this thread.

It’s hard to stick around as a new female member with the reflexive disdain afforded to most by the prevailing male fraternity.

I, for one, hope you stick around, and hope you feel valued, as do women in general here. And it’s threads like this that hopefully re-calibrate some of the otherwise decent fellas who often act like dolts, myself included.

[Measure_for_Measure]

Once again, props to Sunny Daze for starting the thread.

I’ll note that the OP lists 7 Cafe threads, 1 IMHO thread, and 1 MPSIMS. Plus the Skald set which relates to IMHO.

That’s cool and no worries, but I’m wondering about GQ and Comments on Cecil’s Columns (the core of the board). Also GD and Elections.

With regards to the latter 2, I suspect that Mando Jo’s post is on point, more so relatively speaking than toxic bro-ulenity. SWMs (like myself) are the norm in our society, which is more than a little weird. Females outnumber males by a thin margin. Asians outnumber caucasoids by a large margin worldwide. Yeah, yeah whites are a majority in the US, where this message board is located. I got that. Still.

I’ll add that I tend to compose my posts with an audience in mind. Often that means a conservative SWM. There’s some self-censorship I suppose, in that I’ll avoid pushing -oh I don’t know- a full throated utilitarian case for income equality. Because that’s just Sisyphean. Regardless, I agree that my adjustments are way milder than the ones that Mando Jo might require. Anyway, MJ made an interesting point with more general application (as eg monstro noted).
Back to IMHO. I don’t self-disclose a lot here. Plenty of (wise I think) self-censorship in that regard. At the end of the day, there are some forms of self expression that are not appropriate for this board. Don’t post anything if you don’t want to defend it. Give and take is central to fighting ignorance. If you want a support group, go elsewhere. Reddit is terrific for certain things, not so great for others. All that said, check out post 412 by Lamia. Maybe some of her hypothetical posts were best left unposted: that’s certainly the case for me. But methinks there are certain topics and perspectives that “Need to be said”, that probably aren’t.

That’s bad for fighting ignorance. Lamia’s perspective differs from mine in many ways, but she knows how to construct an argument. I don’t doubt she feels shouted down, and that’s an issue for this board’s mission. Nothing is ever settled here, but at its best the main lines of argument are laid out. If there are coherent defensible missing pieces, I for one would like to see them.

So again props to the OP.