Man denied German citizenship for refusing to shake woman's hand

[Max_S]

@ISiddiqui

So his answers being in middle allowed him to say that they were not relevant in Germany without rejecting parts of the Koran.

I think the answer regarding superiority of men over women was incomplete - he didn’t address how that carries over to German law. The answer about punishment for adultery and fornication was a total non-sequitur.

I don’t have a copy of the transcript, but I imagine it went like this:

‘Here’s a provision of the Quran that some use to say adultery should be punished with 100 lashes. [Reads sura 24:2-3] Do you think adulterers should be punished with 100 lashes, and why or why not?’ ‘God is merciful. Couples should discuss this together.’ ‘That’s not the answer we were looking for. Corporal punishment is considered a violation of Article 2 of the basic law providing for personal integrity. Next question.’

I think you’re looking at this the wrong way. The court administered a test on the German Constitution and its principles, not the Koran. There are “correct” answers to all of their questions.

~Max

[ISiddiqui]

I will point out from the article in the OP:

The doctor studied medicine in Germany and now works as a senior physician in a clinic. He applied for citizenship through naturalization in 2012, for which he signed a declaration of loyalty to the German constitution and against extremism. He passed the naturalization test with the best possible score.

So he signed a declaration of loyalty to the German Constitution and passed the naturalization test with the best score. I wonder if other folks who were Orthodox Jewish or Southern Baptist are asked those extra questions.

[Max_S]

@ISiddiqui

So he signed a declaration of loyalty to the German Constitution and passed the naturalization test with the best score.

And the court, during the lawsuit the doctor filed, wrote off his declaration of loyalty and answers to the naturalization test as “lip service”.

I doubt there are more than a handful of Southern Baptists who live in Germany, it is unlikely that any would seek naturalization. There are orthodox jews moving to Germany in recent times, probably thousands, but most if not all of them do so under a different provision of the constitution that was written specifically for holocaust survivors and their descendants.

ETA: Also, he was subject to extra scrutiny because of affiliation with a particular group.

@Max_S

He was subject to the extra scrutiny because the government identified him as a member of this Islamic Community of Germany, which the government says is a branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, which the government says wants to establish a dictatorial or totalitarian system of government and is not committed to the principles of self-determination, freedom of speech, or equality of people. He was not rejected because of mere association with this religious community, he was rejected because the government claims that he puts religion before the liberal democratic basic order.

~Max

[ISiddiqui]

He was a member of a mosque that had ties to the ICG from 2009 to 2012, where he went to pray every few weeks and took place in some activities while in University. It’s a stretch to say he’s this active Muslim Brotherhood member. I’d imagine they wouldn’t have let such a person become a doctor (where btw, he does have patients who are women as well as men - as the report notes)

[Max_S]

@ISiddiqui

It’s a stretch to say he’s this active Muslim Brotherhood member.

That’s the justification given, that membership there was a red flag. Upthread I made a comparison to the U.S. and communism.

~Max

[ISiddiqui]

@Max_S

U.S. and communism.

Which I believe most of us on this forum would think was bullshit reason to be denied for entry, right?

[Max_S]

To be denied entry, sure. To be given extra scrutiny? I won’t say it’s a great reason, but I’m not so sure it’s a bad reason either.

~Max

[Odesio]

@ISiddiqui

Do Southern Baptists eat shrimp? (they do) However if you asked them about it, they would say those Old Testament laws don’t apply today. They are still referred to as Fundamentalists (I believe they are the people most folks think about when thinking of term fundamentalist)

Southern Baptist can point to a specific passage in the New Testament to explain why eating shrimp is okay.

In Matthew 15:11 Jesus says, “Listen and understand. What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of the mouth, that is what defiles them.”

In Mark 7:18 Jesus says, “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body."

[thorny_locust]

@ISiddiqui

Fundamentalists believe Scripture is literally dictated by God (in a sort of possession sort of way) and therefore it must be interpreted literally. Other Christians believe that the writers of Scripture were inspired by God, but not literally dictated, so we can account for historical bias. That’s the main fault line between Fundamentalist Christianity and other forms of Christianity - because if God literally said it, then you have to follow it exact.

I’m certainly not the best person to state what fundamentalists believe. But it’s my understanding that quite a few religious people think that God sometimes speaks in metaphors and analogies; and can therefore believe both that God dictated a particular passage, and that the passage is not to be taken literally.

[ISiddiqui]

@thorny_locust

But it’s my understanding that quite a few religious people think that God sometimes speaks in metaphors and analogies; and can therefore believe both that God dictated a particular passage, and that the passage is not to be taken literally.

Those folks generally believe God is clear about which parts are metaphor and analogy. Think about the Story of Creation in Genesis in the Bible. Non-fundamentalists believe it to be metaphor and mythic. Fundamentalists treat it as true in its entirety. (FWIW, I don’t think anyone believes dictating a punishment is metaphorical or allegorical - whether in Torah, Bible, or Koran, among others).