I work in tech support, but the hard part of my job isn’t the people who are computer illiterate, it’s the fundimentalist christians that I work with.
Goddamn closed minded pricks!
The world would be a much better place if everyone would follow these two simple rules:
This is as good a place as any. My beef’s with Islamic Fundamentalists. I saw an item on the news last night: it was about a growing intolerance towards homosexuality in the major Dutch cities. Yes, the Netherlands, the land where all is possible, yadda yadda. Apparently the main source of the intolerance stems from Islamic communities such as the Morrocans in the Netherlands. Let me preempt this by saying that everyone is welcome to live in my country, regardless of belief, race, social status, what have you. And apparently, a lot of people must feel that way, or we wouldn’t have become such a tolerant country, right?
So, they interview a couple of Morrocan (they’re really Dutch, of course, but of Moroccan descent, and often extremely religious) boys, about 14 years old. The boys go on and on about how gross it is, two men kissing each other, how it’s not natural. “Why do you feel this way?”, asks the interviewer. “Our Imam told us it’s unnatural. It’s in the Koran”. I’ll leave it to the experts to decide whether or not it truly IS a Koran statement that homosexuality is “unnatural”, but that’s clearly not the point.
Rrrrrright. Of course, 14-year-old boys can’t be completely blamed for making such statement if they’re being told so by a figure of authority (to them, at least). So, next up on the screen is an Imam. He, too, is being asked about his hostility towards homosexuality.
In his explanation, this twit states that he is “worried for everyone in Dutch society, Islamic or not, boys AND girls, because homosexuality is a problem - it is unnatural, and immoral”. Furthermore, he tries to add some weight to his arguments by saying that “if this trend continues, it will surely end in the Dutch population becoming…” (Get this!) “…extinct”. What the FUCK??
Listen, you Bin-Laden lookalike. First off, the current ratio of homosexuals vs. heterosexuals does not place ANY society, nation, or population in the world at risk of becoming “extinct”. Furthermore, we don’t need some bearded twat to cast moral judgements on our society as a whole. You can do in your own community what you want, but when it comes to matters of national importance (such as young Morrocan kids fitting in in Dutch society without losing their own religious and cultural identity (yes, that’s possible, you medieval goatfucker)), you’d better keep your foul trap shut. We don’t accept shit like this from fundamentalist Christians (at last count, we had about 26 of them), so why should we take it from you? Preach whatever the fuck you want in your mosque, but don’t expect anyone OUTSIDE of that community to take your word at face value. AND you have a moral duty towards those 14 year old kids. You have to educate them in their religion, but you also have a stake in how they should integrate in Dutch society. We’re all about diversity, and respecting other peoples beliefs. AS LONG AS THESE BELIEFS DO NOT CONFLICT WITH THE WELLBEING OF OTHERS. That applies to anyone living in the Netherlands, regardless of nationality or religion. It’s in the fucking Constitution, look it up.
You think we’re on the path to hell because we tolerate homosexuality? You think it’s a good idea to tell easily influenced young kids that those Evil Dutch Bastards are morally corrupt idiots? Kids that were BORN here, are just as Dutch (at least to me) as anyone else, and will probably live here for the rest of their lives?
If that’s your line of reasoning, then please get the FUCK out of my country. There’s plenty of countries where your ideas and “values”, as you refer to them, still reign. They’ll be glad to have you. We, we’re just trying to get along here, in a society with an extremely broad spectrum of races, religions, and nationalities. That’s tough enough as it is, and we don’t need hate-filled religious freaks of ANY kind along the way. Fuck off.
I was pleased to hear that my political party (Democrats) immediately proposed to put all Imams on a mandatory course on “Dutch morals and values”, with the intent of clarifying the problems of integration in Dutch society of -especially- Islamic youth.
Unfortunately, I’m lately starting to think my country’s one of them.
But preach it, Brother Coldfire, 'cause it needs to be preached.
Oliver Cromwell - not noted as a bastion of religious tolerance - once wrote to a colleague “I beseech ye in the bowels of Christ: bethink ye, bethink ye, that ye may be mistaken.” Sound advice, which I try to bear in mind…
Now, I’m a Christian, so you may feel free to dismiss what I have to say as mindless bigotry against another religion… but I agree with Coldfire here; there are aspects of Islamic Fundamentalism that worry me.
The problem seems to be one of assumed infallibility: the shari’a law is supposedly the word of God, and is therefore assumed to be impossible to misinterpret. It follows, therefore, that anyone who’s authorised to interpret this law cannot be wrong - whatever conclusions they reach.
I am a member of the Church of England, and, on the whole, have a great deal of respect for its priests. But, when I picture an England in which all of those priests are assumed to be infallible whenever they’re quoting the Bible, and where their judgements have full legal authority… this is a mental picture from which I retreat, shuddering in horror. Because they’re only people, and people get things wrong. (And, yes, I know, you don’t have to look very far to find examples of Christian priests getting things very wrong indeed…)
(This is one of several reasons why I’m not a Catholic. I know, the Pope is only supposed to be infallible when he’s speaking ex cathedra on matters of the faith… and I don’t care; human beings are not infallible, no matter where they’re sitting.)
“Bethink ye, bethink ye, that ye may be mistaken.” Yes, sound advice. Oliver Cromwell, of course, wasn’t infallible. But he was bloody well right on this one.
Hmm… all this time I’ve been meaning to move to Dutchville (or whatever that cute lil’ country’s called :D… love ya, Coldy!), but now I’m dismayed to see that the unfavorables have managed to wiggle their way there, too.
In the words of the great and wise philosopher, Dark Helmet… “I knew it, I’m surrounded by Assholes!”
Not that I have any desire to defend the fundies–Christian, Islamic, or whatever–but allow me to point out that there are closed-minded pricks all over the place. The irreligious ones are just as annoying as the religious ones–just in different ways.
(I’m also trying to imagine the reaction to being told “stop and think” by someone styling him/herself fecal_nugget, but it’s making my head hurt.)
Coldfire: Would you like us to send you several thousand of our fundy Christians? They could fight with the fundy Islamics, thus occupying both groups enough that they leave other people alone.
No, don’t thank us–we’re happy to help. 
Coldie:
Could you clarify the bit about "mandatory course on “Dutch morals…etc”. I’m not familiar enough with Dutch goverment/politics to be sure of what you mean, but in the USA if such a thing were proposed it would be considered A) A violation of freedom of religion AND a violation of freedom of speech B) a good chunk of the population would go up in flames C) I might be among them…and NOT because I supported the Imam’s beliefs, but preaching intolerance is not the same as inciting to riot or threatening violence. The Imam’s comments were stupid and unpleasant, but in a USA context I’d be far more concerned by a political party proposing (loaded word warning: here—> )reeducation for those with unpopular beliefs. It sounds to me like your party supports supressing unpopular speech and thought.
Does the Nederlands government often make people with unpopular (and stupid) beliefs go to mandatory classes? Even when (I think) they haven’t violated any laws? Or have they? Again, in a USA context, I’d be far more upset by the statements by the political party than I would by the (stupid, offensive) statements by the Imams.
I’ve reread the above twice, and it’s still coming across as somewhat smarmy and kind of insulting…please understand that I’m honestly curious and very surprised, not attacking. Coldie: I’m suffering from a BIG cultural gap here. Remember the big fight that happened about 6 months ago regarding Nazi memoriblia and free speech? I’m far more surprised by what you said here than I was when I was reading the free speech fight.
Fenris
Sure. Respectively:
A) Everyone has freedom of religion in the Netherlands. Everybody has freedom of speech, too. BUT, and here’s the main difference with the USA, I suppose: Article 1 of our constitution says the following:
I’m sure you can see where this is headed. In short: you’re free to exercise your religion in the Netherlands, as long as it doesn’t harm the freedom and lifestyle of anyone else. Teaching young kids that they have to “put a stop to homosexuality” clearly violates Article 1 of our constitution. And I for one am glad it does: that means we can do something about it within our legal framework.
I understand why it might sound that way to you. It isn’t, though. And it’s not reeducation, per se. I’m also pretty certain that the party spokesman was trying to make a statement rather than an actual proposal. I’ve never heard of a precedent like this, for example. But the gist of the remark is clear: if you honestly think you can get away with remarks like that in the face of our constitution, you’re clearly uninformed -to say the least- about how thinks work in the Netherlands. I’ll be the first to admit that the emphasis in the Dutch constitution is more on the protection of rights than on the freedom of rights (like in the US). But I happen to think that’s a good thing.
No, there’s no precedent for this, and it’s most likely a bold statement to start a debate rather than a proposal per se. But as you can see, the Imams statements DO violate our constitution. The US and the Netherlands are both countries where freedom and individual rights are very high on the agenda, but we do go about it quite differently.
Not offended at all, Fenris, and more than happy to explain. I hope the above information helps a bit to put it into perspective. And also: funny you mention the debate on Nazi memorabilia. Because the occupation by the Nazis and all subsequent atrocities in WWII DID have a major impact on Article 1 of our constitution. See, when about 15% of the population of your nations capital is wiped out solely because of their religion, even if it was by a foreign enimy, you want to do something about it. You adapt your legal framework to absolutely minimize the chance of such a thing ever happening again. That’s why the Dutch usually react so fiercely to hateful statements, whereas the average American may be offended, but will recognize his opponents freedom of speech, and move on.
I’m not sure I agree, but frankly I’m not nearly informed enough about the Dutch constitution to argue. 
Besides, if we keep having an informative discussion, Alphagene or someone might get upset and tell us to take it to GD
It really does, and I appreciate the explanation. It still sounds odd to me but remember, I’m coming from a perspective where we’re indoctrinated with the idea that free speech trumps just about anything else. To hear a civilized country putting those kind of limits on speech is just…jarring, I suppose is the best word. And I also appreciated reading how your Article 1 came about. It does put things into a better perspective.
Thanks,
Fenris