I was unaware that every Palestinian parent lets their children play on highways.
Supporting Hamas is bad. I disagree with those Palestinians that support Hamas, and agree with those Palestinians that oppose Hamas. Palestinians as a group should not suffer for the crimes of some individuals.
So you probably agree with the many Palestinians that oppose Hamas. Do the Hamas-opposing Palestinians also not care about their children? If so, then you should take back blanket (and bigoted) statements like “Palestinians don’t care about their children”.
It’s a fact that some Palestinians support Hamas. It is false to say that Palestinians, as a group, support Hamas. Some do and many don’t.
Again, I agree with those Palestinians (like some personal friends of mine) that oppose Hamas. Hamas should be opposed.
So in addition to not caring about their children, Palestinians can also predict the future now? Don’t bother with such bigoted (and factually false) nonsense.
Neither are Bantus, or the Irish, or Sudanese, but it’s still racist (or bigoted, if you prefer) to say “Bantus/Irish/Sudanese parents don’t care about their children”.
I think I understand it pretty well. Casting aspersions on an ethnic group is racist, or bigoted, if you prefer. It always will be.
We don’t punish people for the ideas they hold, or who they vote for. That’s morally wrong. We punish people for their actions. Launching rockets at Israel is wrong and should be punished. Providing material support to those who launch rockets at Israel is wrong and should be punished. Holding deluded ideas about these rocket launchers might be wrong, and voting for bad people might be wrong, but we don’t (and shouldn’t) punish people for the ideas they hold or who they vote for.
I could approve of every single action the IDF and Israeli government has taken and this would still all be true.
Dude, Magiver’s statements are consistently racist and disgusting. You’ve made your point fully and the field has been defaulted in response. As a general practice, racists should be shunned, not treated as though they are fit to talk political matters with non-racist adults, they aren’t.
Then perhaps you should take in this lesson as well, and not compare Israel to the Nazis or falsely call them fascist, and not declare that Jews have a responsibility to stop this violence.
Then you and I disagree. What Israel is doing to Gaza is the same as what the Nazis did putting Jews in the ghettos. I’ve listed the similarities can you come up with some differences? The Israeli treatment of the Gazans is highly similar to the Nazis treatment of Jews prior to the death camps. You’ve asserted many times that it is not a valid comparison, but your assertion is bare.
There is a reason the man in the OP gave his medal back. The murder of his family members. There is a reason no one has listed death camp survivors in support of Israeli in Gaza, because there are none. Not a one. There are any number of survivors who object and some who make the same comparison that I have. You have dismissed his opinion as meaningless and ill-informed.
Back off on the personal attacks. Your opening claim that certain statements are racist might fall within the bounds of Great Debate rules, but the remainder of your post is an insulting personal attack.
No it’s not. This doesn’t mean that Israel has not done bad things, but this is an incorrect (and deliberately inflammatory) statement. Any bad things Israel has done pale in comparison to the crimes of the Nazis. Israel’s transgressions fit much more closely into the (unfortunately) quite common litany of mistakes and misdeeds of dozens of countries, including the United States, just in the last few decades.
The chief difference is that the Jewish ghettos were created as a precursor to the Final Solution – Jews were deliberately herded together and segregated from the rest of the community in order to speed and ease their murder.
I have not dismissed his opinion. I might disagree with it (with his comparison of Israel to the Nazis, though not necessarily the criticism of Israeli actions in Gaza), but that doesn’t mean I dismiss it. As to Holocaust survivors who support Israel’s actions, I can name at least one – my grandmother. She’s highly supportive of Israel. I disagree with her on some points, certainly. But her opinion is just as valid as the gentleman you cited.
You keep making that up. Why do you keep inventing quotes and straw men arguments? A good Jew (and Christian for that matter) have an obligation to speak out and do something to avert and reduce injustice when they can. That is what I have been trying to say. You deliberately have misconstrued that several times to accuse me of saying the things above, which is are nasty anti-Semitic tropes. The choice isn’t between being pro-Gaza and anti-Jewish, Judaism is a religion of ethics and how to treat other people and the duties owed to justice. And justice is something that is even-handed. What would Jews and Americans in general be doing and saying if the populations of Tel Aviv and Gaza were switched and the policies still perpetuated? There have been and currently are enough similar situations in the world to know the exact answer: we call this genocide when it happens to Kurds, Christians, Sufis and Jews in other countries. Why do the Israelis get a special pleading? Because we turn a blind eye. I agree with those that say this is a Nazi style ghetto. Others say it is a South African style apartheid state. Others say it is to be expected because the people of Gaza are all criminals, or harbor criminals or elect criminals. South Africa eventually abandoned the apartheid model, and that has worked out very well. But Israel doesn’t accept that it is apartheid or that they are engaged in anything in violation of international laws. It insists, like most sovereign countries, of being its own judge, but in doing so also judges the non-citizens of Gaza (and the West Bank) of not having the right to have a country, law and order, being recognized and a right to defend their own rights. The people of Gaza live in a nasty prison, similar in many respects to the Warsaw ghetto. It should be called that.
As for the campaign to ruin the careers of Americans who complain about it, Why is Norman Finkelstein Not Allowed to Teach?, that too is despicable.
The Israeli government is fascist, and the dead bodies in Gaza, a ghetto enforced by Israel is the proof of that. The machine gunning of little boys is proof of that. The bombing of the citizens is proof of that. The failure to bring the alleged criminals to a trial before their peers is proof of that. You assert, over and over again that it isn’t fascism, it isn’t Naziism, you assert that it is mere bad. Dr. Meyer and the other survivors differ and offer reasons and personal eyewitness testimony.
What is going on in Gaza is genocidal and there are a lot of people denying that it is genocide to treat a whole people in a way that starves them, cuts them off, doesn’t allow them to vote on their foreign policy, have only pretend elections where criminals scare off all other contenders, kill citizens in retaliation for criminal acts committed by others, machine gun young boys, bulldoze homes, and constantly have their mouthpieces dehumanize them at every opportunity. Netanyahu has a right wing fascist government with respect to the people imprisoned in Gaza. The only major difference between the Israeli government with respect to Gaza is that they don’t have death camps, a feature that even the Nazis didn’t have until late 1942.
Where in that article does Wiesel say he is okay with Israeli policy in Gaza? He certainly objects to Hamas and their sins, but he sure as hell doesn’t absolve Israel of the various abuses referred to, including the use of Gaza as a giant penning area.
Try again. Find a death camp survivor who *approves *of Israeli policy in Gaza. The article you’ve come up with is that he soundly denounces Hamas.
No, you said the violence will continue until the “Jews speak up and demand it be stopped”. That’s not saying Jews have an obligation to speak out against injustice – that’s saying that this particular conflict continues (at least partially) due to Jewish inaction. That’s assigning a special responsibility to Jews to end this conflict.
No I haven’t. And I haven’t accused you of anti-semitism. I took back the assertion that you implied it was the fault of the Jews. But you have implied that it is the specific and special responsibility of the Jews to end the conflict. You shouldn’t do that.
No we don’t. We don’t call situations like this genocide. They still may be wrong, and they still may be crimes, but genocide is trying to kill an entire people. The Israelis are not trying to kill all Palestinians.
Then you’re wrong. Nazi-style ghettos were much, much worse.
Continue with these criticisms, in which the Nazis are not invoked. These are much better arguments, much closer to being accurate, and much less incendiary.
No it shouldn’t.
Dead bodies do nothing to prove fascism. Dead bodies from government misdeeds exist in many non-fascist countries. Fascism usually leads to dead bodies, but there are many, many other political systems that also lead to dead bodies. Dead bodies don’t mean fascism.
On this particular assertion Dr. Meyer is wrong. Fascism isn’t “evil government that kills people and does vile stuff” – fascism is a specific (and despicable) form of government, and Israel’s government and society have very little in common. They have much more in common with US or UK government and society then with any fascist country’s government and society.
Most of these statements are factually incorrect and/or hyperbole. Exaggerating with hyperbole Israel’s misdeeds does your cause no favors.
It only took you 30 seconds and you thought it was so easily refutable because you aren’t thinking very hard about the problem due to your preconceived notions and comfortable biases.
I don’t think you will find a death camp survivor who lacks empathy and recognition for what is happening in Gaza. The strength it takes to live through that requires a lot of humanity and a lot of empathy.
Wiesel might be your best bet, as he is strongly pro-Israeli and speaks a lot on the issue, but I’m betting that he wants Israel to do a lot better toward the Gazans.
It isn’t hard to find survivors who are appalled, I’ve linked to them. Why don’t the supporters of the Gaza policy have this on tap along with their usual talking points.
Absolutely. And it’s very possible to have empathy for the Gazans and still support Israel’s actions against Hamas. In fact, one can support Israel’s actions against Hamas while still criticizing Israel for the effects of various policies on Gazans.
This is an extremely complex issue, and your criticism is much to simplistic, as well as counterfactual in many respects. Your incorrect usage (and understanding, apparently) of the word “fascist” is just one of the prime examples of this. Another is your singling out of the Jews as holding a special responsibility to end this conflict – since you said that it would not end until the Jews speak up.
I’m sure he does. I do too. One can believe this and still be supportive of Israel’s actions, or one can support most or some of Israel’s actions while opposing some of them.
There aren’t too many survivors left, but it’s not too hard to find ones who hold all kinds of opinions. The opinion of your example is no more or less valid than that of Elie Wiesel, nor than that of my grandmother, who lost many family members in the Holocaust.
No, that’s not assigning special responsibility or causation to Jews. It is saying that the only people the Israeli government will listen to are Jews.
When you made the assertion that I implied it was the fault of the Jews, you accused me of anti-Semitism. I don’t accept your taking it back, it is a disgusting libel, and repeated when you assert that I say it is the “specific and special responsibility of the Jews to end the conflict.” I didn’t say that, you made that up and put it in my mouth, again, implying that I’m anti-Semitic. I’m not anti-Semitic. I want the people of Gaza to live the same kind of free life that those in Israel have. That isn’t too much to ask, it is a minimum.
“We?” I do. I’ve given a list of people who do, and the world in general does. Oppressing a people until they scatter across the earth, or starve, or have their culture ruined, while libeling them all as criminals, harboring and electing criminals while actually killing significant numbers of them is genocide.
I’ll agree that they were much worse, because they were. But Gaza is still a ghetto, its really, really bad, and: you can’t compare our ghettos to Nazi ghettos because ours aren’t as bad isn’t just a weak argument, it concedes the argument. Congrats, you aren’t running real Auschwitz or the real Warsaw ghettos because we provide three times the calories and international visitors still makes it a ghetto just short of a concentration camp and a lot worse than an South African “free state”.
We are now debating where on the scale the Israeli forced ghetto of Gaza is on the scale of gated community for the aged all the way through Warsaw Ghetto and on to death camp. Hint: it is a lot closer to Warsaw Ghetto than South African “free state” and thus the comparison is *apt. * Many find the comparison offensive. It isn’t as offensive as having to live there, or in my case, finance it with my tax dollars.
See, incendiary has a specific meaning. Like an incendiary bomb. The sort of thing dropped on Gaza (or on Israel in the case of Hamas). What I’m doing is making a comparison of evil. Speaking. I’m not machine gunning or bombing anyone. I’m pointing out that we are acting in a really evil way that the closest historical case are the ghettos the Nazis set up, the best documented of which was in Warsaw. It’s a lot better a comparison than South Africa, which is why it is apt. It is the best historical comparison. There are no death camps in Israel. Those who have called for extermination are immediately ostracized. But those people exist and some of them were in power when they made them.
We are having this conversation because after five decades here the parties are. No improvement for the denizens of Gaza. Had this lasted six weeks to six months or a year it would be a tragedy. But after 50 years, with one side holding all the bargaining power during all that time and all these people suffering, you’ve got to make the closest historical comparison. And it isn’t South Africa. It isn’t the Soviet Gulag. It is a ghetto, a Lord of the Flies zone, that is not quite as bad as a Nazi ghetto, being they get three times the calories on average, but still well below healthy levels.
So, I, like Dr. Meyer, call it like I see it. Similar to the Nazis. Now I am well aware that is really, really, really offensive to Israelis. But being only a third as evil as the Nazis up until 1942 is still pretty frickin’ evil. The Nazis were a lot more evil than anyone else in history (and that is saying something), and we want Israel to do good.
Dead bodies are a good indication of fascism. So is ultra-nationalism, militarism, constant war, the libeling of opponents, killing civilians and running a large ghetto whose membership is based on ethnicity and smearing all the inhabitants with the label of criminal when not actually killing lots of them. Netanyahu and his buddies are fascists.
Dr. Meyer speaks from experience, study and personal observation that you are willfully blind to.
Dr. Meyer died in his sleep today. Hajo Meyer - Wikipedia