Man returns Holocaust medal

Great Debates
221

Only one of these links (from the Independent) comes close to what you described (taunting children and then machine gunning them), and it’s a secondhand report about a single death that, unfortunately typically for this conflict, is another he-said-she-said (or Israel-said-Gaza-said) dispute over the facts.

So hardly conclusive.

Not that the other reports are not necessarily misdeeds and/or crimes – they may well be. But mischaracterizing and miscategorizing them, as you are doing continually, just weakens your arguments and further shreds any bits left of objectivity in your statements.

No it’s not, and it’s an insult to the victims of the Nazis. Please, please find a closer comparison. It’s really not hard – just look at nearly any of the wars the US or UK have been involved in in the last half-century… you’ll find dozens (or more) comparable situations.

222

This was a long-distance shelling. It may have been misdircted fire from a different target. It may have been insufficient caution in recognizing a target. It may well have been either criminal or accidental. It is not the same as Hedges’s claim that IDF forces have murdered children with close-range direct automatic fire.

These are accusations of excessive force in the context of demonstrations against the IDF which may or may not be criminal and which includes references to bystanders being hit. (Since no details are provided, there is no specific action to judge.)

Finally, a specific incident in which Palestinian youth were reportedly killed, (by rifle fire, not by indiscriminate machine gunning).

A mixed story with no clear line of action and a lot of finger pointing by both sides, that does discuss IDF forces taunting kids.

Uncorroborated claims of shots fired at ambulances. (Ignoring the fact that Hamas has used ambulances to transport arms, fighters, and suicide bombers.)

Re-hash of the current claims about attacks on schools and hospitals.

Your “plenty of other reports of similar incidents” claim amounts to exactly one incident that resembles the claim made by Hedges accompanied by any other claim of Israel behaving badly.

You are twisting the discussion. You repeated on several occasions that the IDF was machine gunning children. I said that it was not. When you finally linked to Hedges’s article, I called into question the accuracy of his claim. So far, you have provided a single story that comes close to that claim with the apparent rifle shooting of two youths on one occasion along with a lot of stuff that only you consider “similar.” So far, your evidence is on my side.

For someone who has whined repeatedly that people drawing logical inferences from your statements are “making it up,” you are inordinately willing to do what you accuse them of. The original exchange was:

You made a claim that the IDF was repeating the action of taunting children and then machine gunning them. To that I said they were not (routinely taunting children and then machine gunning the children when they responded).

When you finally posted a single source making the claim, I pointed out the problems with accepting his word on that specific issue. Among the reasons given was that he was he sole source of that report, despite his claim that it was a frequent occurrence.
I made no claim that he has lied.
I noted that there is no support for his story from any other source, despite his claiming that it is a frequent event.
Even when you wandered out to support him, you could only find two stories that might be mashed together to make one claim–and they do not agree with the details he provided. You have one story of two youth being shot aftr a protest died down and one story talikng about IDF soldiers taunting kids in a school. You have no story where the IDF taunted kids and then machine gunned them when they responded. I have no idea why Hedges posted what he did and I do not call him a liar, but with utterly no corroboration for an event that would be big news in Gaza or Palestine, (similar to the kids being killed on the beach), I see no reason to accept his claim that his story is accurate.

I am not blind to facts. I have condemned specific actions undertaken by both the IDF and by Israel. Here, I asked about a specific incident to which you referred on multiple occasions and for which no reliable evidence has been presented. That is not me being blind. That is you choosing to believe any and every negative thing said about Israel, even when no facts are present, so that you can rationalize the hated you are venting.

223

Actually, Hedges has a long history of making outlandish claims and since leaving the NYT in 2005 has made himself into a polemicist.

Polemicists, whether they be Christopher Hedges or Christopher Hitchens generally don’t make for the most level-headed of sources as one would imagine is also true of people who write books called American Fascists.

I actually saw a debate between Hedges and Sam Harris where in response to Hareis bringing up suicide bombers blowing up buses he claimed that he saw IDF soldiers regularly gun down unarmed Palestinians for kicks while he was with the Times.

Of course as you alluded to that would mean one of two things.

A) That Hedges saw this happen and chose not report it.

Or

B) That the editor squelched the stories and for some inexplicable reason he has been covering their actions.

I think all reasonable people would agree both claims are hard to believe.

Additionally he has had serious and credible claims leveled against him that he committed plagiarism so his integrity has come into question.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118114/chris-hedges-pulitzer-winner-lefty-hero-plagiarist

224

So your solution would be to continue (and expand) aid to and trade with Gaza without such controls, knowing that much will be diverted to military purposes, on the grounds that gee, there’s no rationally dealing with these people so they can do whatever they want?

Even if it was reasonable to just ignore Hamas while funneling reconstruction aid into Gaza, it can’t be overlooked during an idealized negotiation between “moderates”, seeing as the supposed Palestinian moderates (the P.A.) are now allied with Hamas.

Interestingly, a senior EU aid official, while strongly criticizing Israeli damage to infrastructure in Gaza, had harsh words for Hamas’ complicity in the destruction:

*"“Hamas has an enormous responsibility for what happened here in Gaza,” said (Louis) Michel, the humanitarian aid commissioner, as he stood in a United Nations aid compound damaged by an Israeli shelling.

He echoed Israeli criticisms that Hamas used civilians as “human shields” by fighting in populated areas and, describing Hamas rocket fire on Israel as a “provocation”, he said in English: “Hamas is acting in the way of a terrorist movement.”

Michel also criticized Israel for the offensive – which it launched in a bid to end daily rocket fire from Gaza on its southern communities – and appealed to Israel to allow in more aid.

Hamas said it was “shocked” at his comments."*

The kicker here is that Michel’s comments came in 2009 after a previous Israeli invasion of Gaza.

The beat does, depressingly, go on. Based on past history, the EU and private donors will provide more large sums of money for Gaza reconstruction, Hamas will rebuild its arsenal and tunnels, fire more rockets at Israel, which will respond with more “disproportionate” action and more influence for its hardliners, followed by more international hand-wringing, etc. etc.

Or maybe it’s time to try tightening the screws on both sides.

225

Not only no, not only fuck no, but that’s nothing like what I said at all. I’m seriously baffled and a little irritated that you continue to insist on putting such weird positions on me, and I wish you’d stop.

That’s a lot closer to what I said.

226

Glad to hear she is still with us. Record her for posterity, you will never regret it.

I really don’t see anything wrong with her quote. People do what they need to survive.

227

Who are you referring to?

228

Mr. Hedges report is reliable evidence, and you pretend, it is of zero value and assert the opposite as fact. You demand a corroborating witness for that event. That is a second piece of evidence of another event that their might not be evidence of. Mr. Hedges is a reliable reporter, as you concede. Your assertion that it didn’t happen is made by you, and as far as I can tell, it isn’t based on eyewitness testimony, but a method of thinking that makes a conclusive presumption at the start and refuses to consider any evidence to the contrary because it isn’t fair. You then, when I within a hour of internet searching come up with similar instances, attempt to distinguish them, not as an open mind would in looking for new information, but in attacking credibility of some witnesses and noting that not each one is in fact identical.

Tens and tens of thousands die in Gaza of violence over the decades and you offer and copiously defend your position that a genocide is not taking place, slurring the credibility and character of all the witnesses.

There is no war in Gaza, Gaza isn’t a country. The machine gunning of the desperate imprisoned citizens, the bulldozing of their home, sometimes with them in them, the bombing and rocketing of their homes, usually with the residents in them, the libeling of a whole people, all these things are genocide.

Genocide is not okay as long as it doesn’t happen to white people. Genocide is not okay as long as it only happens to others. Genocide is not a legitimate form of self-defense. It is the worst crime ever committed.

Israel is committing genocide in Gaza, and the US is paying for it and providing political cover for it.
Here are two articles on the Warsaw Ghetto and its eventual liquidation. Keep in mind, the Israeli fascists have not liquidated Gaza, although there are calls for it:

http://www.workersliberty.org/story/2003/04/22/warsaw-ghetto-uprising-desperate-last-stand-against-nazis

The narratives of Warsaw and Gaza are, up until the death camps, similar in most respects, right down to the nasty propaganda about the inhabitants.

229

Of course the actions of the Israeli government aren’t equivocal to the Nazis. But I also don’t think it’s monstorus to point out the nation of Israel’s controversial foreign policy is still trading on sympathy for atrocities committed 70 years ago.

The action of retuning the medal brings the two in contrast, and it does so effectively.

230

If you change the meaning of the word, then you can use it to mean anything you want.

Israel is holding an open market in Gaza.

Hamas is launching skyrockets into the air to celebrate.

Buffalo dung makes your oxfords nice and shiny.

231

Besides, if Israel is already committing genocide in Gaza, it might as well kill them all, right? After all, it can’t be any more evil than it already is. Because as of now, Israel seems to be suffering all the negative consequences of committing genocide without reaping any of the benefits.

(Note - I am not suggesting that my country commit genocide, I’m just pointing out flaws in the argument that it already is).

232

This doesn’t sink to the depths the Allies plunged to in WW2, let alone the Nazis.

233

Except that, as far as I know, Israel isn’t “still trading on sympathy for atrocities committed 70 years ago”.

234

That could be word-for-word what my survivor mother and father has said over the years. My dad died a couple of years from now, so I can’t quote him directly, but my mother has expressed this sentiment recently.

FWIW, when my mother’s labor camp was being freed by the allies troops the allies wanted to let the prisoners kill the Nazi guards. My mother and others tried to protect one of the guards, as he had been sneaking food to them to help them survive, so she’s not some blood-thirsty, bitter person. She’s just lived too often beside people who wanted to wipe her out and has made the decision time and gain to fight to survive.

235

Thanks for sharing. Just to make it clear, my grandmother, a German Jew, was not in the camps, but escaped Germany to Canada with a few members of her family (her parents and her sister), while many other family members disappeared, in the 1930s.

236

I think they are partly responsible. You can’t have the only state self-identified as Jewish prominently in the news for its behavior towards its occupied territories and not think that people won’t draw a connection between Jews and the state of Israel. You don’t want to believe its true, and you have a good reason for fighting against that bias, but the reality is that it is a fact and undeniable. Putting your head in the sand does nothing for your argument

I believe that’s wishful thinking. I didn’t say Israel is wholly responsible, but partly.

There’s a lot to be said in doing it first, or doing it a long time ago. Nobody makes an issue of the other countries because it hasn’t been an issue for hundreds or thousands of years. Israel would be smarter to drop their incessant demand on being recognized as Jewish and try to be recognized as a state by all the other countries first. Then in a few hundred years when things have died down, they can append that moniker to their name

237

Genocide is hyperbole, what is happening appears to be deliberate systemic demographic dismemberment.

But I’d like to hear out the alternate viewpoint. For those who know, what do you believe is the best case scenario for The Knesset? Where would they like to be and what would Gaza and The West bank look like in 50 years if they got everything they wanted?

238

Huh? That’s not a map of Gaza. That’s a map of the West Bank, with whom the Israelis are not fighting at the moment.

239

It’s not surprising, unfortunately, that a lot of people blame Jews for the actions of Israel, but it’s still anti-semitic to do so. And Israel holds no responsibility whatsoever for, say, vandalism of a temple or a Jewish cemetary in Hungary. Temples and Jewish cemetaries were being vandalized (and much, much worse) long before Israel existed. Israel might be a convenient scapegoat for bigots to blame, but that doesn’t mean these bigots have any legitimate reason to do so.

240

My mistake, you’re right. Those have nothing to do with one another.