Man returns Holocaust medal

It means that they see the similarities between Israelis and Jews as more important than the differences between them, weighing it more heavily, and coming to the conclusion that despite the differences between Israel and Jews living abroad, they are more alike than not

It is somewhat justified if they feel that those factors above mean more to them than the differences.

Let’s not say “know” because that implies some factual answer. Instead you should refer to it as many ordinary people take the differences between Jews and Israelis into account moreso than the similarities. Then lets go back to your sentence, substitute that part out and focus on the word “many”. So many people do that. Some don’t. Perfectly legitimate to me, as long as they are not doing it from a place of bigotry

I said that there are similarities between the two that mean more to me than the differences. That is a fact because I actually do believe that. You can disagree with my reasons for believing it, but not the empirical fact that I hold those beliefs. To me, the similarities account for quite a bit more than the differences and that’s why I choose to hold Jews to some degree of responsibility for Israel’s actions

I would add more to the list that would make the situation unique

From what you are saying here, it sounds like you (1) hold all Jews “somewhat” responsible for Israel’s acts and (2) find those acts “uniquely” bad.

Then I really have nothing more to say. Other than I fiind such an equivalence reprehensible.

Its not as bad as you think. You’re imagining the responsibility to be too high if it offends you that much.

Can anyone explain why I should care whether someone hates me because I’m a Jew, or because I’m an Israeli?

Assuming the hater was in a position to do you harm, in the latter case, you could (presumably) stop being an Israeli citizen if you wanted to appease him. In the former case, you are shit outta luck.

But I don’t plan on ever doing that, so it’s a moot point.

As an Israeli speaking against extremism, do those who support extremism in Israel probably give you a lot of hate?

I think Yogsosoth overstates the conflation of Israelis/Jews in the minds of the abundant ignorant. Even stupid people can understand the difference if it needs to be explained to them. Bigots don’t care.

I would also imagine that for someone who fits in both categories, the difference would seem minor for geographic, social and identify reasons.

Fair enough.

Israel as a country is there to stay, and so are the citizens.

Exasperation, mainly. I have right-wing friends and family members, and I have left-wing friends and family members. Both sides drive me crazy from time to time. You just learn when not to talk politics.

It is the same here. My very pro-Israeli practicing Jewish cousin passed away last year. I miss him a lot. He was a Republican Jew in San Francisco.

You’ll always be the former but you can protest the latter

You are making it up. No one else has reported IDF forces taunting kids to throw rocks and them machine gunning them, particularly multiple times.

You are making that up. I made a specific search for reports that corroborate Mr. Hedges’s claims and found none. Your claim that I have never considered accepting Mr. Hedges claim is something that you want to believe with no basis in fact. You have not provided a single corroborating statement that anyone has seen the IDF taunt kids into throwing stones and then machine gunning them for that action.

I have never denied that the IDF has been responsible for thousands of deaths, so your remark is irrelevant. I have noted that there is no evidence that IDF troops have taunted kids into throwing stones and then machine gunnned them for that. It is the single point about which I had a question.

Not the same action. That is the point.

I have not disdained Amnesty International. I have not discussed other actions attributed to the IDF. You are making it up.

Were they throwing rocks at the IDF in reaction to taunts by the IDF who then machine gunned them? No. This does not support the claim by Hedges.*

This is a retelling of exactly the same incident in your previous post, (except that one story claims he was minding his own business and the other claims that he was reacting to IDF taunts. “He” is not multiple children; “he” was not machineg-gunned. You need a lesson in reading for comprehension.

Possibly criminal actions by the IDF (if the stories are accurate), but no examples of the IDF taunting children to throw stones and then machine gunning them.

Another story of possible criminal behavior by the IDF (if true), but no evidence that the IDF taunted children to throw rocks and then machine gunned them.

[ snipped several more claims of Israeli bad behavior without a single reference to taunting children into throwing stones and then machine gunning them. ]

The kids on the beach were hit by long range weaponry. It may have been a tragic accident where they were incorrectly identified as legitimate targets; it may have been criminal negligence in which too little care was taken to identify the correct target; it may have been deliberate murder. They were not shot at close range for throwing stones at IDF forces who were taunting them. The other incident includes claims of taunting by the IDF, but the multiple versions of the kid’s death do not agree with each other and none of them include your scenario.

I have called you no names. I pointed out that your insistence on trying to change the subject to overall claims of genocide whenever I try to find evidence of one claim you have made is, itself, monomaniacal, which it is.

This is entirely false. (Perhaps libelous.) I have made no statements regarding genocide, so you are making that up. I have made no statements that would minimize crimes against humanity. I have raised no “spurious distinctions.” I asked for evidence of a specific event for which you have repeatedly failed to provide credible evidence, instead, dodging and weaving and pretending that other events are “the same.”

= = =

  • I have not dragged an analysis of this event into the discussion because you clearly would be unable to handle it. However, when I first saw that video, I thought it looked fake. I have found other reports of the same purported incident, including one by a credulous CNN reporter. Among other things, I note that there is not a single drop of blood where the two kids fell. Finally I found a video of the same scene, (presented by a Zionist group, so suspect in itself, of course), that shows the kids under the overhang rehearsing the event with a time stamp prior to the first “shooting.” In the interest of not making your head explode, I am not going to pursue pointing out the problems with that video.

In fact, I am now going to bow out. I asked for evidence of a very specific claim and all you can do is whine that other, different events are in some magic fashion really the same. I am sure that kids in the IDF taunt Palestinain kids. I am sure that there have been criminal actions by the IDF. I asked about one event and that event just never happened.

As a non-Israeli Jew, I care somewhat. It determines whether he also hates me.

As a non-Israeli Jew I tend to remember the world has pretty much always hated me. Israel was established three years after the end of the holocaust. I don’t think there’s much we can do to get those feelings to stop. Well maybe they could kill another million Jewish children just for being Jewish. But I’m not about to volunteer my little ones just for a bit of world sympathy.

I’m not going to engage with you because you deny the facts of a genocide.

Point to where I have ever “denied” genocide.

Again, you are making it up.

No he doesn’t.

You deny the facts of his denial of facts! Or something.

(If we all cut off dialogue with those we disagreed with, the SDMB would be an empty wasteland in a matter of hours…)

Ouch, that’s gotta sting. I wonder how Oskar Schindler and the other living and dead Righteous Among Nations feel or would feel about the way Israel is treating the Palestinians.