Well, marrying a non-Jew certainly gets you a lot of cred in my book. Five yelling Rabbis is a poker game! My Dad (a Jew) married a non-Jew, that makes us cousins!
My personal conduct and political belief isn’t governed by the standards of tyrants, criminals, racists do or have done. My conduct and belief is governed by the standard of would you want this done to you and yours? There is no declared war of one country against another, rules of occupation followed, it is a constant oppression and squeezing.
What happened to the Jews in Germany in the 1930s was a Nazi crime against humanity and a horror that the world largely ignored. Now we are financing (through my tax dollars) the killing of thousands of Gazans every time it suits the political need of the government without specially targeting the military actors, killing bystanders and baiting and killing young boys. Some Israelis and some Americans have called for killing all of them. We are well along the long slide of moral depravity.
Supporting hypothetical rights such as a pretend government doesn’t excuse the misery that is Gaza. If you wouldn’t accept this happening to you and yours right now, then it isn’t acceptable. That a just agreement hasn’t been reached in decades does not justify a position of when can have justice later.
Would you be okay with your tax dollars supporting the State of Palestine that controls access to the Israeli ghetto, not government, of Tel Aviv without travel access controlled by Palestine, where life is misery. Would what goes on in Gaza be okay to do to Israelis? Is the humanity of one superior to another?
When the Israeli troops enter Gaza and taunt the children over the loudspeaker, and the children throw rocks and the Israeli troops then machine gun those children, is that not utterly fucking monstrous. Is that not fascism?
Machine gunning children is certainly monstrous, but it’s not fascist. It’s not communist either, or monarchist. Try to learn the meaning of words before you use them.
Sorry, but this is ludicrous. Israel is a democracy, where all citizens – including Arabs – can vote. Hamas is a terrorist group, and those who speak out against Hamas are killed. Israel has a free press (except on matters of national security); the Western reporters that LEAVE Gaza say that they were unable to report anything except what Hamas told them to report, for fear of their lives. Israel spends its tax dollars and outside donations to build infrastructure and defense. Hamas spends whatever money it has to build tunnels to attack Israel, and to smuggle in weapons. No wonder the Palestinians are in such dire straits – their “government” prefers to buy weapons to food, or building roads, or setting up an infrastructure. Israel toleratres all religions, and allows all religions to maintain and visit their holy sites; when the West Bank was under Palestinian control, Jews could not vist Jewish holy sites at all.
You and I obviously have very different definitions of “fascist” state.
I’m not saying that the Palestinians aren’t in a sad plight, but the solutions are pretty obvious: denounce terrorism, accept that Israel has the right to exist, and try to live peacefully as neighbors. Every Israeli would be delighted.
And do remember that Hamas speaks in code: “occupied territory” means all of Israel.
My comment was not directed at you, but at this Dutch guy, who is saying, in effect, that he’s sorry he saved some Jews from being gassed by the Nazis, because Israel is misbehaving now. He’s the one doing the conflating, not I.
And I think it’s absurd. Might was well say, “Nigeria is doing dreadful things, I’m sorry that I supported the equal rights movement for blacks.” Or Sudan is engaged in genocide, I’m sorry I gave money to the Ethiopian charity." It’s racist, not to say stupid.
Try reading in context. When you machine gun children it is both monstrous and fascist. It is fascist because it is done for an ultra-nationalist, race and religion based bigoted and authoritarian motive.
Try learning the moral consequences of fascism and monstrous murdering before you do propagandize on behalf of whatever ultra-nationalist authority you support.
There are many historical instances of machine gunning children that were not done for “ultra-nationalist, race and religion based bigoted and authoritarian motive”. Your understanding of the word “fascist” is wrong.
I take it you’re not actually interested in learning the opinions of those who disagree with you. Considering that, I will stop trying.
He said nothing of the sort, and you are putting words in his mouth that he did not utter. Israel gave him a medal for saving a Jewish girl from the Nazis. He never said anything about regretting that action. Israel killed six of his relatives. He is not obliged to let Israel associate with his righteous actions. You are the one doing the conflating. Badly.
Israel has occupied the West Bank and Gaza for five decades. The Palestinians who live in those places are not allowed to form their own government and seek recognition from other governments, travel without restriction, etc. The people who live in them are not allowed to vote in Israeli elections and no election stations are set up there. The are not incorporated into Israel and given any of those rights largely for the reason to keep them from voting. There is a large movement in Israel, led by the current far right wing government, to move the nation further to being a nation of Jews, and not just people who were born there and lived their whole lives there. A democracy is where in a geographic area controlled by that country, all the adults who live there or are born there get to vote in national and local elections. It is, as Jimmy Carter has correctly pointed out, an apartheid system. Of course he was attacked ad hominem for pointing out that fact. Anyone who criticizes Israel, including Penelope Cruz lately, is blacklisted.
Remind me. . . who here wants to kill the Jews? Oh, that’s right Hamas! Hamas are obviously the Nazis in this scenario. If during WWII the Jews had the resources to fight back against Nazi Germany, then that would look more similar to current situation. I don’t believe you can support Hamas without supporting the killing of Jews.
Hamas was duly elected in Gaza. Israel does not control Gaza - Hamas does. Arabs who live in Israel vote in Israeli elections.
The Palestinians do not want Israel to incorporate their lands into Israel.
See, the problem with your position is that you are simply wrong on the most basic facts. Never mind labelling anyone who contradicts you a “monsterous fascist”, which is just bad form.
In 1969, John Kerry received a bronze star for saving the life of a Green Beret named John Rassman, who had fallen overboard during a firefight. In 1971, that star was among the medals that Kerry threw away during an anti-war protest. Do you think that his action indicates that Kerry now wishes he had let Rassman drown?
Hamas is not a legitimate government recognized by the international community, which is the definition of legitimate government. It is a bunch of violent extremists.
You next point out that Palestinians do not want Israel to incorporate their lands. No they don’t and they didn’t. Yet Israel incorporates what lands it pleases and fences off the rest and objects to self-governance recognized as governance by other states (and Israel) for any Palestinians.
Operating ghettos is monstrous and fascist. That is what Gaza is. Five decades of oppression, killing at will, letting what Israel considers criminal extremists run and dominate it. Blockading it. Fascism - Wikipedia
So? Your objection was that Palestinians in Gaza didn’t get to vote. The fact that they voted in a bunch of lunatics doesn’t support you.
You just pointed out that Hamas is, and I quote, “a bunch of violent extremists”. Now you are angry that Israel opposes their recognition?
I will grant that successive Israeli governments have used the power imbalance between them and the Palestinians to steal bits of land, which is bad.
I doubt adding a wiki link to “fascism” is helping you here. Are you blaming Israel for “letting” Hamas run the place? How, exactly, would Israel stop Hamas from running Gaza?
Are you arguing for a more thorough Israeli invasion, to get rid of Hamas once and for all?
Fascists and Nazis are pretty much the same thing, Nazis being a bit worse than other fascists. And they don’t get to vote for Knessett and have never been offered that. They get to vote for whichever criminals are the most intimidating.
I’m arguing for Israel to take full responsibility for a ghetto that they surround, control, invade and kill at will.
If they believe the members of Hamas are criminals, seize those members and have them tried before a jury of their peers, like in a real democracy. And if Israelis bait and machine gun children, then they get tried by their peers in the jurisdiction that it happened. You shoot rockets into Israel, then you get tried in the community you allegedly shot the rockets into. You come into Gaza and machine gun little boys, or bomb hospitals, you go to Gaza and get tried by a jury there.
You claim to be a democracy, everybody gets to vote in the national elections. You don’t set up a ghetto and pretend it is legal. A country is not a country unless recognized by the international community. Gaza is not a country.
So you are arguing for Israel to invade Gaza - and arrest the entirety of Hamas, no less.
Why do I get the sneaking suspicion that if Israel followed this advice, you would not find the resulting carnage justified, or think they are any less “fascist”?
No. I am not arguing for an invasion or an arrest of members of a political party. I am arguing for the arrest by the real authorities of people they claim to be criminals launching rockets. Indictments by name if they know them. There are people there entitled to a real government, not Thunderdome.
Israel’s military has grossly overstepped in this conflict, and their thin veneer of humantiarian warfare–“knock-knock missiles” my left foot–is easily exposed by the actual costs in civilian lives of their actions.
Comparisons between them and Nazis are obscenely foolish, and Lavenderblue is unfortunately right: terrible arguments like that are only likely to make average Israelis support their government all the more. Second Stone, consider that you might harden positions and lead, in your own small way, to more civilian deaths.
Yeah, me and Dr. Meyer and all that blood on our hands. We say anything and you will make sure it is worse on the Gazans. As if killing them isn't enough. If we don't shut up about it what will you do next? Cancel their summer vacations? Really, Left Hand of Dorkness, what exactly are you planning to do to demonstrate your hardened position and get revenge for my postings on a message board? They are being imprisoned and killed, you do understand that?
This isn’t going to stop, and it is going to continue to get worse until Jews speak up and demand it be stopped and reversed. The racist genocide has gone on for more than 50 years and does just get worse.