Man vs Chimp - fight to the death (a different perspective)

That’s not an assumption I’d be willing to bet on. Chimps aren’t superman, but although their jaw structure is less efficient ( you can bite about as hard as chimp can, though a chimp will do far more damage due to their huge canines ), it is relatively more massive and likely more shock resistant. It isn’t all about pull strength, either - it’s also twist. A chimp can apply massive torsion force and that’s what is going to kill you.

Taking your scenario of a super-aggressive nutcase in peak physical condition with the pain tolerance of Job against a bog standard adult male chimp…I’d still put money on the chimp in any struggle that got into close quarters. It might be a dicier outcome, but unless you took out the chimp quickly you’re in for a world of pain. You can out-throw a chimp, out-swim a chimp, flat out crush it in an endurance run and even be competitive in a wind sprint - but they’re just vastly better designed for a wrestling match. To the point where it is hardly a contest at all for a normal person and frankly not a vastly better bet even with a monster human.

How much force can the most expert martial artists generate? Per here about 5000 Newtons in a punch and 9000 in a kick. Let’s imagine that our idealized human chimp fighter is 50% heavier than the typical expert martial artist and can apply all that mass with the same velocity as the regular sized experts can so increase all by 50%.

Note: knocking a human or a chimp out is based on the shear force most easily generated by rotation. As the linked article states for humans

Our psychopathic huge strong expert in MMA human has one shot to catch the chimp off guard with a perfect kick to the head. If that does not knock the animal out he is dead.

The chimp’s head is supported on a short and extremely well muscled neck. I doubt our psychopath could catch the chimp completely unawares and I doubt that even a kick with 1350 Newtons will get that head spinning on that short very muscularly thick neck from zero to 43,000 rpms in 1 second, if that is even enough to cause sufficient shearing force in a smaller brain with cortex less far out from the center of rotation.

I like that - numbers are cool.

You mention something interesting which I didn’t factor in… anticipating the blow. In a human vs human fight, both combatants understand what the other is capable of and to a certain degree, and know that while a punch or a kick is coming, they don’t know how or when… but it’s enough.

Same with chimp vs chimp. But human vs chimp - neither quite understand what the other is going to do. A chimp has no concept about left hooks, stomps to the head or a sweep of their legs, and that is an advantage the human MUST capitalize on.

Likewise, the human isn’t going to understand the movements and warning signs of whatever the chimp is about to do - which is one of it’s main advantages.

The more I think about this - the more I believe it comes down to which combatant does the most with their first genuine attack.

I think the closest human vs human version of this that we can watch, is when a BJJ athlete takes on a striking athlete (like the old version of UFC). Royce Gracie was the chimp, and the kickboxers/Karate dudes were the humans. Now, if they could land a kick or punch early on and had sufficient killer instinct, they could win - but Gracie was way too smart and skilled at avoiding these attacks, and simply waited until he had them in a clinch, then game over.

In our situation, the human is the most intelligent and can research the chimps moves, while the chimp just thinks he’s fighting a weird looking ape.

But, I do think the first blow, from either, would win it. Chimp grabs the guy and gets a good chomp on the neck/face or can manipulate his striking arm sufficiently to say, dislocate the shoulder or something, then that’s it. If the guy can get a boot on the chimps face/neck region with full force then he could knock out/stun it enough to jump on and land a second throat stomp or eye/thumb gauge - which case he wins. But speed is absolutely essential - which is why I gave this hypothetical character a passion for crazed violence.

If this scenario could be replayed over and over - I’d give the human a chance in maybe 40% of the fights… winning 10-20%.

For the people who think the difference between chimps and men is that the chimp’s savagery is what gives it the ability to literally dismember people, go to your refrigerator and try to pull apart a raw chicken with your hands. Let us know how you do. Chimps are amazingly strong.

Show me a legitimate source of a chimpanzee dismembering a human and I’ll go with it - until then, there’s this quote from Slate (I haven’t looked for the primary source).

So twice the strength, pound for pound - which if true… is comparable to our hypothetical combatant.

So I’ll still go with the savagery aspect.

Do you have an example of a professional boxer getting his ass handed to him in a fight by anyone other than a professional fighter? I find this implausible.

Humans are the undisputed wimps of the animal kingdom. We are very slow and very weak comparatively. Your average squirrel is faster tha Usain Bolt. Being a strong human is like being a tall dwarf. We are built for endurance running and tool use.

Pitting a chimpanzee against a human is like pitting somebody with a baseball bat against someone with a handgun. It should be no contest. However, making it a hand to hand fight is like taking the bullets out of the gun. The gun makes a lousy striking weapon compared to the bat. Again, it should be no contest.

Another way of looking at it would be like me, a full grown strong and healthy man in a fight against a 4 year old girl. Sure, the 4 year old girl can be the strongest 4 year old girl in the world. You can give her the rage factor, the training, whatever you like. There is still just no way that she wins.

I think people who think otherwise, really just not quite understanding how strong a chimp is compared to a man. We actually have a defect in our genes which is useful for endurance but makes them much weaker than other primates.

Unarmed man has no chance.

Locked in a phone booth (or equivalent almost-touching space) with a chimp for a fight to the finish:
[ul]
[li]a man with a gun – has a fair chance if he shoots immediately and his shot strikes a “fatal area” (heart or adjacent blood vessels, brain). No certainty though, and a pretty high likelihood of both parties failing to survive the encounter no matter where the first (or second, or third…) shots strike.[/li][li]a man with a knife – has a chance. Not a good chance, not even a fair chance, but a slim chance. Still a fair likelihood of neither surviving.[/li][li]a man with a club or other bludgeon – has virtually no chance. Oh, a tiny hint of a possible chance, like a snowball surviving in hell and totally dependent upon a tremendously lucky first strike. But no better.[/li][li]a man with bare hands – has no chance at all. If he survives, it will be because the chimp got bored before finishing the guy off. And even then he’ll bleed out without immediate and herculean medical intervention.[/li][/ul]

I’ve handled (professionally) some “non-human primates”. Mostly the smaller ones, not the great apes. But I’ve been present when others have handled those animals, observed and assisted. And there are two additional aspects beyond the matter of pure strength already discussed. Which, I will reiterate, is overwhelmingly in the chimp’s favor.

The first aspect is speed. These creatures are quick. No, not just quick, but profoundly, stupefyingly, fast. So fast that one will grab, rip, tear, bite, and twist your extremity or your face or your genitals before you can draw back a fist for a punch. And then do it again, even while your punch lands. And again. And again. Along with their speed, these animals are incredibly lithe. They will block your strikes or avoid them while still causing damage to you. And woe unto you if you try the bear hug technique. Those canines will rip you to bleeding shreds. At the same time, that powerful, agile, lithe creature will easily frustrate your efforts to maintain a grip.

And finally, the way wild creatures respond to physical injury and pain is unlike normal human response. I work with wild animals every day, and see many with horrendous traumatic injuries. Unable to understand that our efforts are intended to help, they fight back with an intensity that is unimaginable to people who haven’t witnessed it. Pain seems not to exist for them. Creatures with a limb ripped from their body, bleeding out from a severed artery, will still use their remaining limbs and teeth with what seems to be all of the strength and intensity of an uninjured animal. In a life or death (to them) encounter with a human, wild animals expect no quarter – and give none. They fight to the literal last breath and last drop of blood.

In sum, it doesn’t matter what our fighter does to that chimp, except for putting a bullet into its brain. No matter what damage he inflicts, he will not slow the chimp down or reduce the intensity of its efforts. Since the damage ratio is so heavily in the chimp’s favor to begin with (every bite will cause copious bleeding and likely sever tendons and muscle groups, every grab and twist of an arm or a leg will break bones) even if our guy manages to cripple one of the chimp’s limbs, the damage ratio will only begin to approach parity. And meantime he is sans cojones, bleeding from 2 inch deep gashes all over his body, and struggling to use arms with fractured bones. Oh, and probably missing several fingers, too. The chimp will keep on keeping on, until the human isn’t resisting or the chimp gets bored. Then he’ll take a victory lap before sitting down to lick his own wounds. If, that is, he has any.

I have no idea how to factor in the speed, savagery, etc. But while a “fit young football player” of the 1920’s might be stronger than average, he would probably weigh around 160, and probably bench about that, too, if he had ever heard of a bench press (weightlifting was considered harmful to athletes by some supposedly knowledgeable coaches as late as the 1960’s). The guy in the OP’s example benches 640, so he’s four times as strong as the human, too.

Has anybody ever tried to see what a chimp could bench? It shouldn’t be that hard to rig up an apparatus that forces him to push a weight up to escape.

To me the issue is surprise. Maybe Mr psycho can walk up and suddenly break the chimp’s neck, or perhaps blind it. If they both start angry and wary of each other, it’s a whole different game.

The thing is- the man will start with the idea he needs to kill the chimp, while the chimp will not start like that. Unless you started the chimp angry by picador-tactics. A trained human could take the chimp out before the chimp realizes it is in a fight and has to fight instead of running.

It’s good to note that are under a million Chimps (of both species) while there are 7.3 billion of us. We keep them in cages, not the other way around.

We keep (some) chimps in cages because we use tools, especially weapons that work at a distance. And we plan our exterminations. Chimps don’t. They do appear to have some forethought, but they don’t plan for the future the way humans do. Still, even an inattentive or distracted chimp will go from zero to full blown viscous defensive assault in the blink of an eye.

Anyone who believes that a human, any human, could “take the chimp out before the chimp realizes it is in a fight” has never so much as shaken hands with an actual chimp and is laboring under a delusion. Unless of course we’re allowing firearms. Bare handed, any of the great apes could destroy any hypothetical human combatant, probably without spilling it’s ice cream cone.

Vicious! Not viscous. Damn, missed the edit window. :-/

Humans killed (and even ate) other apes for millions of year with nothing but stone tipped spears.

What part of “weapons that work at a distance” did I fail to make clear?

The OP is a barehanded encounter. The human will lose. Every time. Given enough repetitions, some will be more spectacular failures than others. But the outcome is never in doubt.

What you need to do is give Mariusz Pudzianowski some PCP. I think any human would shrink away and start panicking if a chimp were to break a finger or tear off your ear. You’d need someone who can fight through that. While the chimp is biting your arm, your other arm should be trying to gouge its eyes out or rip off its genitals.

That’s an interesting thought. A normal chimp may fight like a human athlete on PCP. The human might then exhibit the ability to ignore pain and damage that the chimp exhibits at all times. The outcome is still certain though, due to the chimp’s far superior strength, speed, and dexterity. The chimp won’t break fingers, it will bite them off. It will break arms. Best you could do is protect your eyes and face with one hand, hang onto your nuts with the other, and lie down and curl up, hoping the chimp finds something more interesting to do.

The part where you said “Unless of course we’re allowing firearms.”

Humans are predators, chimps are prey.

My mention of firearms was in relation to the OP, which was a one on one encounter, not food hunting by Stone Age humans. An Age which wasn’t either millions of years ago, or millions of years long, by the way.

As for the other, you are simply wrong.

Cite

And more directly toward the OP:

Emphasis mine. He was young, strong, and a chimp researcher. There was no damage noted on the chimps. Yes, there were two of them. So what? Cite

Altho certainly chimps are somewhat omnivores and do hunt a little, they are not generally considered predators.

And, he wasn’t trying to kill the chimps, was he?