Did you read my first cite? The rather authoritative one? The part where it says “chimpanzees … are also predators” then goes on to explain just how much predation they do?
As for the second, no, I assume initially he wasn’t trying to kill the chimps. But once they attacked him, he was fighting for his life. He barely survived, thanks to herculean medical intervention. The chimps were undamaged.
I’m going to walk away now because this thread seems to be straying from the guidelines for this forum. I’ve offered my opinions, and threw in a few facts. But I don’t want to debate it with you. Sorry. Not here, anyway.
This is where your argument always hits a snag. You say ‘certain’ - when it’s absolutely not certain. Likely, yes - bloody likely maybe, but never certain.
Remember, you’re dealing with two animals of comparable characteristics, mannerisms and DNA. In a fight such as this, both animals will be seriously wounded. The chimp never gets out of this intact - even if he does win the fight. So by using logic and common sense - there will be occasions, however infrequent, whereby the human animal does indeed inflict a blow/inflict damage significant enough to gain the upper hand (if he still has two remaining).
It’s funny that PCP is mentioned because that is how I envisage the rage and bloodthirstiness of my hypothetical fighter.
Lets look at another hypothetical scenario and work backwards…
In Game of Thrones, The Mountain is the pinnacle of human beastliness. In the show, he had the strength to crush someones head. Now ignoring that isolated incident (as not even a Gorilla could manage such a feat), what would happen if this character fought a chimp? Not the actor playing him, but the character…
I’d say he would have a chance… but what has he got that our hypothetical fighter hasn’t? An extra 12 inches in height and 70kg’s in lean weight.
Could a chimp handle our fighter if his physical attributes were extended to those figures - everything else remaining as stated?
Sure there has to be a point whereby physics MUST take over. There’s only so much extra pulling strength, or tendon strength of the elbow and wrist before the advantages become negligible.
Yes, but they are not generally considered predators, even tho they occasionally do prey.
So, two guys get the drop* on* one guy who is initially concerned about hurting them back? And, it’s a surprise that the two guys beat the crap out of the one guy? This proves- what?
And here again I disagree. The chimp almost certainly gets out without damage. The human fighter cannot bite 2 inch deep lacerations into the chimp, and will only by great good luck dislocate a chimp arm. The chimp, on the other hand, will slash the human into catfish bait, and break bones.
If you’re going to modify your OP into some hypothetical pseudo-human with hypothetical super powers, I’ll leave you to your fantasy.
So when you say “not generally” you mean it is beyond your consideration, despite the testimony and the evidence presented by Dr. Craig B. Stanford, Department of Anthropology, University of Southern California. Who presents considerable evidence that there is little “occasionally” about it, and concludes his assertion that chimps are predators by saying
From your own cite: *“Today, we know that chimpanzees everywhere eat mainly fruit
*” and " Chimpanzees are largely fruit eaters, and meat composes only about 3% of the time they spent eating overall, less than in nearly all human societies. "
So, when your own source sez 975 of the time Chimps are prey, not predators vs 3% of the time they are predators, then even Dr. Stanford agrees “not generally”.
Yes, it is exciting that chimps eat an occasional colobus monkey, which was not generally known before. That doesn’t make them generally predators. They eat fruit 97% of the time.
They are predators when they’re acting predatory. That’s pretty much it, there really isn’t a binary reality here. If there were they would by strict definition fall under the “predator” category just because they sometimes do hunt and kill to supplement their diet. It’s really all a continuum - in NA black bears generally have about a 85% vegetarian diet, but nobody seems to have an issue labeling them as predators. For that matter different chimp populations have different cultures and behavior patterns and some hunt more than others, in different ways and with different proportions of prey ( though colobus monkeys always seem to predominate ). The hunting pressure some chimp populations exert on local red colobus populations seems to be comparable to that exerted by, say, spotted hyenas on wildebeest ( very roughly 10% per annum ). So it’s not like their activity is not having an ecological impact.
But this is really a sorta irrelevant digression. Chimps are undeniably omnivores ( or hypocarnivores if you prefer ) with an impressive set of dentition - just like black bears or the chimp’s distant cousin the hamadryas baboon. Wrestling with them = not fun and as CannyDan points out, very likely fatal.
Well, how about this- Chimps will not have predator behavior towards a human, whilst humans commonly eat chimps.
No doubt, that a enraged chimp jumping on a human will tear him a new one. Stronger, bigger teeth, etc.
My point is that a* trained killer *human, vs a standing there not-being-aggressive chimp- that the human might be able to kill the chimp before the chimp realizes it’s in a fight. To be fair, give the human a knife- and it that case, i think the human wins. The OP gives us a violent trained killer perfect specimen human vs a ordinary chimp. I agree with him that the will to kill will be present in the human, and not the chimp (since humans are not baby colobus monkeys), and I think that could make the difference.
Might is probably where we hang up. Humans have actually been killed by a punch to the face/head, but it is very rare. A chimp has more massive bones and bone sockets and almost certainly is more shock resistant. I think it’s a pretty slender “might” if we’re talking barehanded. Possible? Maybe - but I’d still bet on the chimp ;).
I think the only way the man walks away is if he can just convince the chimp he is a much more ferocious opponent than he really is and the chimp thinks it isn’t worth it and walks away. A bare-handed brawl will end with the man dead or if he is really tough like the hypothetical guy in the OP not win but survive the encounter in really bad shape afterwards with severe trauma. Maybe if he got EXTREMELY lucky and the chimp fell on the ground or something he could jump with all his force on the chimp’s neck or spine.
I remember watching on TV one of those deadly chimp encounters in Africa on some kind of preserve. The African guide was dragged from the vehicle and ultimately was killed, but I can’t remember if he was died at the scene. The other guy who I think was American knew he was going to meet the same fate and I guess tried the psychological approach and while the chimp was attacking the other guide, he picked up a large piece of wood and started slamming the chimp with it. I’m sure the chimp could have easily prevailed and killed him, but I think it was so caught off guard when it started getting hit, it just followed its immediate instincts and ran off into the jungle. I can probably find the video online later, but the guy didn’t really defeat the chimp he just scared it enough that it ran off.
“Eating meat x % of the time” is a really crappy metric for meat’s impact and importance on the diet of the chimps. Fruit is c. 90 % water, some carbs, tiny amounts of incomplete protein and mostly negligible amount of fat. So, a chimp needs to eat literally cartloads of fruit, taking no doubt quite a bit of time, to approach the nutrient content of a single colobus monkey, eaten whole, in minutes.
Sigh, Ok try this someday (or really dont try this as it terribly illegal and immoral) . Find some guy standing there reading his phone, minding his own business. Attack him full out, trying to kill him. You will likely be able to, since you took him totally by surprise.
I think that if you took some trained professional killer and then put him vs a chimp sitting there quietly, the result may be quite the opposite.
Be that as it may- Chimps are endangered by us, not the other way around. And they are hunted as bushmeat, often by guys without a gun.
I have no doubt whatsoever that a chimp, what with great strength and nasty teeth can take down a human* if the Chimp jumps him.* But that’s not the question posed by the OP.
I suppose that in a real cage match a average chimp with whup a average human. But I think a trained HtH killer could beat a average chimp.
Imagining fights between chimps and strongmen or wrestlers or MMA fighters or Roman gladiators is just plain silly. :rolleyes:
…the *real *match must be between a middle aged chimp and an in-his-prime Mike Tyson, whereby both opponents are required to wear boxing gloves, shorts and a cup. Mike must also have his canines filed down.
If Tyson could connect with an on-the-button uppercut to the ape’s noggin right after the bell as the chimp’s looking down wondering what the hell’s strapped to his hands and junk, he might have a chance. Otherwise, I predict the chimp will be champ and Iron Mike will be the chimp chow chump.
The real question is, who will have his ear bitten off first?
