Manhattan of the SDSAB

The BBQ Pit
41

The proper response would be “Objection! Relevance?” but playing along for the second, True.

Still meaningless. And completely irrelevant. And a waste of time and bandwidth. And probably a logical fallacy of some sort.

Had you asked “Are there pro-terror leftists among those who exerted political pressure against the government on the issue of Gitmo prisoners?” you might have had a useful question. One which supported manny’s contention. Just like my question showed that the “evidence” he has offered as examples of “pro-terror leftists” is bullshit.

Enjoy,
Steven

42

Sure, Ted, Jim, and Ernie, but they’re nuts and nobody else on the left pays them any mind.

43

Bricker, Christ, why would you stick up for him when he’s being such a goddamn moron? I mean, God knows I don’t like you much, but at least you generally are capable of meaningful argument and can summon something akin to factual support for what you say. So why are you pretending that he wasn’t clearly indicting a large segment, at least, of the left? Is that really the kind of rhetoric you think supports your point?

Christ. What about Terry Nichols and Timothy McVey? Am I now entitled to refer to the “pro-terror right” whenever I get pissy in a political thread? How about people who murder abortion doctors? Do I get to call you the “pro-murder right”? How many terrorists in the U.S. are leftist?

Jesus. If you had any sense, or any honest belief in what you were saying, you’d be trying to distance yourself from this imbecile.

44

DING DING DING! A good question! manhattan would have us believe it is some schlubs holding signs with phrases including “I am ashamed of my country” on them. He would also have us believe it was people among the ACLU and other groups who opposed the interrment of hundreds of people with varying levels of evidence against them in Gitmo. I answered “True” to Bricker’s question because there are terrorists in the US, both international(think sleeper cells) and domestic(think seperatist groups) therefore there must be pro-terrorist people in the US and the odds are good that one or more of the could be labeled, or would self-identify as “leftist”.

Still, if one is going to be doing more than academically discussing the possiblity of such a minority existing within the large population of the us, then it makes sense to have some damn good evidence before throwing the label around.

Enjoy,
Steven

45

This is so damn lame. I know some of you what to try and pick up the argument here but there is a perfectly good thread going already. Don’t justify this piss-poor excuse for a Pit with any intelligent posts. Is there really a need to open a thread just to say

? Go ahead, condemn or refute, but please have something to say.

46

Interestingly, I think people on the right on this board would be very interested in distancing themselves from people like McVeigh and the murderers of doctors. Where are the protests from the people on the left on this board against those who, say, opposed the removal of the Taliban and al-Qaeda from Afghanistan or who are rooting for the insurgents and terrorists in Iraq?

If I hold up a mirror which can reflect back “legitimate do-gooder” or “reflexive anti-American” or “pro-terrorist,” perhaps those who see one of the latter two are mad at the wrong person.

47

Perhaps. But you are not in posession of such a mirror. Nor, for that matter, a lens which produces the same effect when you look at someone through it. So maybe you should just lay off the labeling of people. You have shown yourself to be very bad at it.

Enjoy,
Steven

48

Let’s see, manny said this:

In other words, the people who he is calling pro-terror and the people who brought political pressure to stop holding prisoners indefinately without legitimate cause are one in the same.

In other words, his random pictures of fruitcakes on the streets of San Fransisco are disingenuous, because no one in their right mind could think that their holding signs about Indian treaties was the amazing “pressure” that brought about the release of these prisoners.

I’d like to hear him name some actual names: who are the actual people that are pro-terror that successfuly pressured the U.S. to release prisoners (assuming that’s even what happened: as far as I can tell it’s not entirely clear that IS what happened, given whom the decision was put to).

49

Sure, if you believe that torture is form of terror, there’s even a poll to back you up: Americans Split on How to Interrogate

50

No, I can’t “root” for them. I don’t personally know anyone who does. I very much doubt that you do.

I do, with great sorrow, recognize the right of an invaded people to resist their invaders. The announced good intentions of those invaders notwithstanding. From their perspective, they are as legitimate as the Macabees of Israel, or the Resistance in France.

Those are our soldiers and I “root” for them. I hope it is they who prevail, and the other guy gets killed, his wife widowed, his child orphaned. It is a repugnant moral position to be in, but I do not blame the troops for this predicament. I pray that the justice this travesty deserves be visited on the men responsible for this horror.

I regret that I have little faith in prayer.

51

Former SI swimsuit model & all around hottie, the babe of the bar Lynn Stewart (Esq.)

52

Wrong example. Think Spanish Civil War–the Soviets sponsoring the Left, and the Nazis supporting the Right. This isn’t brave Iraqis defending their nation against the Americans (although there is some of that)–it’s outside Salafi fighters using Iraq as a staging ground against the West.

53

Ah, I like this argument Gobear

It’s the one that’s trotted out so as we think that maybe the real Iraqis are all totally grateful and its outsiders, mercenaries, adventurers and agent provocateurs who are doing all this ‘insurgency’.

We British used this when we didn’t want to acknowledge that actually it was the Irish themselves who were shooting at us, it wouldn’t do to believe that we were not wanted.

It’s been done so many times, by administrations of all types, in so many differant countries, you’d think GoBear that you would have seen straight through this canard by now.

Somehow I doubt that these ‘foreign’ insurgents could operate at all without the support of some of the populace, and they would be very easy for the grateful local populace to spot and point out to the good US non-invading and well intentioned US troops.

Get real, its mostly Iraqis who are this ‘insurgency’, they most likely will not support the current US installed government.
Given the history of this area, I would not be in the slightest surprised that those who make up the current Iraqi ‘government’ are doing plenty of score settling themselves against other groups who might want a share of power.

Recent Arab history shows that one tribe will try to dominate all the others, and ensure their own hegemony, we do have some fairly good role models here, just look to the South West a little, at Saudi, or Kuwait, these are not anything like democracies, and its very likely that this is less an ‘insurgency’ and far more a power struggle, one tribe using the US to enforce things for the moment, the others tribes collectively organising against them.

How long after the US leaves does anyone think this puppet government will survive, and what is most likely to replace it whan it falls.

We could end up with each party not being strong enough to take over the whole country, and none being able to prevent any of the other tribes pretty much going their own way, civil war is a distinct possibility.

I just do not see the Sunnis, Shia and Kurds working together long term, they all have incentives to break away, and they all have the possibility of assistance from neighbouring populations.

The very best we can hope for is some form of assembly, with each region having its own autonomous district, but woe betide any group that is seen to have stood with the US.

54

With all due respect, Gobear, says who? What is your authority for this pronouncement?

55

I believe the notion that most of the agitation is from outside has been debunked. In addtion to what Casdave said, it was also a popular argument during the protests of the '60s. Establishment pigs claimed that most demonstrations were organized by communist operatives. I mean, organized? It is to laugh. Ha.

56

[That’s correct.](Few foreigners among captured Fallujah insurgents)

57

Link
Few foreigners among captured Fallujah insurgents

58

Let’s ask the Iraqis. [58% say that terrorists do the kidnappings and assassination of police and soldiers. 9% say that patriots fighting for Iraq carry them out. 32% say ignorant Iraqis who have been brain washed & misled carry them out.

89% said that the terrorism, kidnapping, beheadings and assassination of police and security forces do not help the freeing of Iraq and the building of a stable country. 6% said that it would help free Iraq and build stability. 4% had no opinion](http://powerlineblog.com/archives/008379.php)

Gallup’s been asking, too, in Baghdad at any rate. The Gallup poll found that 71 percent of the capital city’s residents felt U.S. troops should not leave in the next few months. Just 26 percent felt the troops should leave that soon.. Also, less than 20% said attacks on allied forces are justified and less than 40% said they could be justified under any circumstances. That’s among the people who are actually being occupied. I’ve joined Gallup’s site in hopes of learning more about the specifics of this poll.

59

Here’s a site with the breakdown of the poll. Consistently it is the Kurds who are most pro-Bush.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-28-poll-cover_x.htm

60

You’re giving manhattan too much credit for his link ZAMB. His Gallup poll reference is from October 2003. I wonder if he’s aware that Iraqi attitudes have changed since the halcyon days of “mission accomplished”?