Manipulative and/or not quite consensual sex but not rape?

About that, I have my own anecdote,but in my opinion, it only serves to reinforce my point.

I was around 20 at the time. I was working (my job was legal and technical documentation) in a kind of NGO whose domain was children, teens and youth with problems (of all kind : handicapped children as well as young convicts). One of the programs was offering a one year long training for unemployed youth lacking basic formation who wanted to become educators for teens. It included a short (one week? a dozen days?) training to get a license for what I think would be called in English summer camp councillor. I was interested in getting said license, so I joined up. The session turned out to be a general nightmare, since a number of trainees had problems of their own and they never had stayed together (we were staying in a small town in Normandy for the duration of the training). Amongst other things, there was two suicide attempts. But I digress.
One of the girls in the group fell for me big time. She was really a nice girl, but I wasn’t interested in her and had a girlfriend. However, first one, then two, then three of her female friends had talks with me to try to convince me to date her (she never talked to me directly, and after the the first friend’s talk, I was avoiding her). My objections were met with all sort of counter-arguments, in particular how horrible a person I was for having seduced her and not being willing to deliver.
So, I gave in. After all, I was a relatively horny 20 yo, as I said she was a nice girl, and I was feeling guilty. I don’t remember at all how it began, but at some point, we were in a secluded room, making up. We did all you would expect us to do, but I was feeling uneasy about the whole thing, and when it came to the actual intercourse, I finally decided to call it a day and told her that we should just stay on friendly terms for the rest of the training or some similar nonsense. It wasn’t well received at all. I was previously an horrible person for having seduced her, you can image what I had become after having done everything except inserting slot A in tab B.
I really don’t have a fond memory of the rest of the training. I spent most of it trying to comfort her, convince her to get over it, and so on. For instance, she would left in the middle of a class crying, so I would follow her, talk with her, cuddle her, she would calm down till the next time, etc… (Yes I know, what you’re all thinking but I was 20 and the grand total of my previous experience re relationships and women was one). The fact that, the general atmosphere was becoming denser by the day (suicide attempts, etc…) didn’t help. The fact that, though the students were my peers, the members of the staff were my colleagues didn’t help, either.
I can tell you that in this situation the sex part has been the least of my concerns. Without the shadow of a doubt, the big issue was emotional, and due for the most part to my complete inability to deal properly with the situation, from the beginning to the end, and in particular the concept that I had some sort of moral obligation towards this girl just because she had fallen for me.

Hasn’t happened to me, but high school was rife with creepy ‘I didn’t really want to but he kept pushing so I sort of just gave in’-type situations that probably, all details considered, ran from awkward teen sex to full-on rape. It’s one of the (many, many) reasons why I’m uncomfortable with people who hold a ‘rape exception’ for abortions. Consensual sex is not always so clear cut, especially for the young. (Not that I want to complicate this any further with the a-word).

This is significant, because if I get it correctly, your point is that we often believe these things have to do with the physical act of sex, but really they have to do with underlying emotional issues? Well, I would agree, but I would also say many people cannot so easily divorce sex from emotion. You seem to see the sexual act as merely a symptom of the emotional issue, but in my experience the two are often jumbled together and indistinguishable.

I don’t think what happened in your case was right; I think she was clearly being manipulative and her friends made the situation worse by continuing to exert pressure. I don’t think it’s any more right for a girl to put that pressure on a guy, and I think it’s pretty evident this was a negative experience for you. So you are basically sharing your very own example of what the OP was after. Maybe you see it through a different lens, attribute your consternation to the sense of moral obligation instead of your lack of desire, but ultimately what we are talking about is what it feels like to have other people completely disregard your feelings, and then give in, only to regret it later.

I completely agree with this statement. Especially when you’re a teenager or young adult in your first sexual experiences. I, and it seems like others (men, women, gay, straight) have agreed with me when I talk to them about it, feel like the act itself is so closely tied to our reasons for doing it–we’re horny, we want affection, we want companionship, we feel guilty because care about them but not as much as they care about us, we think we’re supposed to want this, we want power, we don’t want anyone else to think we’re a wimp, we don’t want to be that guy who turned down sex, we don’t want to be that bitchy girl.

I didn’t have a healthy relationship with my first two partners–nothing coming close to abuse–but a combination of hormones, a poor body image, a hunger for romance, and a selfish partner resulted in some bad memories for me. I had sex when I didn’t want to for the wrong reasons.

However, I’ve also had sex with my husband when I didn’t really want to–but that was entirely different, because of the emotions involved. Our relationship is stable and loving, and we’re considerate of one another. We both feel perfectly comfortable expressing our needs at the time, which is the key, I think. That didn’t exist in previous relationships, so I ended up feeling, well, slightly violated and manipulated, and stupid for giving in. Now, with my husband, if one of us wants sex and the other doesn’t, we come to a compromise based on our moods in that situation. Having a quickie with someone you love when you’re not really into it is completely different, because your motivations and experience are different. In those situations, I feel happy and generous.

Having sex with someone who, as olives puts it quite well, “completely disregard[s] your feelings,” is horrible.

You put it better than I could. Yes, that’s exactly what I think.

Well, not in my experience. And in this particular case, I think that on both sides, the issue was whether or not I would date her, not whether or not we would have sex. Had she just been very horny, I strongly doubt that I would have given in, I strongly doubt her girlfriends would have put pressure, I strongly doubt she would have strongly resented being rejected. She probably would just have picked another guy to bang her.

Just to make things clear : her friends were very manipulative. I don’t believe she really was. As I mentioned, she didn’t even speak to me directly originally. And though she was pissed off afterwards, her reactions and whatever she said was IMO caused by her emotional state (and probably by her friends’ opinions on the matter), not by a deliberate attempt to manipulate me. I said she was a nice girl, and I still believe so. Just desperate (in all likelihood not solely because of me). The situation was very unpleasant, but I don’t blame her. I do blame her friends, though. The whole drama might have been in good part of their making.

Well, once again, I still think that that had the story been “You know, our friend is really horny and could use some sex”, me giving in but eventually not delivering, and then her being pissed off because she hadn’t been banged, this would have been mostly a non-issue on both side, instead of the one-week long drama it became, and I would barely remember it.

Sex was incidental, IMO. And I do think it so more often than not. As you wrote, a symptom, given an exaggerated importance by our cultural heritage (having sex “soiling” us, and especially soiling a woman) and the resulting, and IMO mistaken, assumption that being, say, manipulated, into having sex is much much worse than being manipulated into doing something else (like the emotional leeches I mentioned previously).

And I can’t help but think that in an otherwise stable and normal relationship, paying too much attention to such things as one’s partner insistence, or at the contrary “walking on eggs” (not sure this sentence makes sense in English) when it comes to sex, in situations where one wouldn’t if it wasn’t related to sex is somewhat unhealthy. If you can stay awake to wash the dishes at your partner’s request, or to listen to the last office related anecdote you partner insists on sharing at 1 am without feeling used, you probably also can offer some unenthusiastic “physical comfort” without feeling used either (plus the likelihood of it turning out to be more pleasant that expected is higher than with the dishes or the office gossips :wink: )

Like I said in the original topic, I’ve had that experience.

I ended up in bed with a girl after a party, and though we’d had sex once before we weren’t together in any shape or form. That time I really, really didn’t want to - she was depressed, I offered friendly cuddling comfort and talk, that’s it, y’know ?
But it turned into something else (or maybe she’d had ulterior motives all along, who knows ? I’m a naive and trusting guy), and she kept on nagging until I gave up rather than snap & toss her out. My thoughts at the time went something like “Oh for fuck’s sake, you keep saying sex is meat, and it’ll get her to sleep, what’s the big deal ?”

Bad experience, spent half of the next day in the shower compulsively washing, avoided her for a long time. Revised “sex is just two hamburgers colliding” opinion.

Very close. In English, one walks on eggshells.
Also,

I think you were probably making out (kissing, etc.) Making up is reconciling after a fight.
[/English lessons]
No offense meant, clairobscur, ton Anglais est tres bien, et meilleur que mon Français.

Just my thank-you for everyone who has helped me with languages at any point.

I’m certainly not offended. That’s helpful (only problem is that I tend to forget and repeat the same mistakes)
And while we’re at it, it’s “ton anglais est très ** bon **” rather than “très bien”.

Deep breath

OK, I’m going to offer my own experience of coercive/manipulative sex, and we’ll see what you make of it. IMO, it’s much closer to full-on rape than most of the examples here, but I’ve never called it rape. I’ll try to keep this as short as possible.

I was a very troubled 12 year old. I was struggling with undiagnosed depression, I had recently hit puberty and went from “chubby” to “smokin’ hot, can’t possibly be 12” in a very short period of time. So I was dealing with all the usual turmoil of that age plus some additional emotional problems.

I met a guy on a local BBS. We chatted a lot, then talked on the phone, and eventually met in person. This guy was a friend of my friend’s older brother, he was older and all badass in a James Dean meets Trent Reznor sort of way. We started dating, unbeknownst to my parents, because he was 18, you see.

I thought I was in love with him, of course. He listened to my horrible whiny adolescent poetry, we talked for hours on the phone every night. Little did I know at the time that he just liked to deflower virgins.

At some point, rather soon in the relationship, the topic of sex came up. Looking back as an adult, I am amazed at the manipulation, the very carefully planned assurances that he would never pressure me to have sex unless I was truly ready, yadda yadda. I’ll spare you the details, but it’s obvious now he was very well-versed in talking 12 year olds into having sex while making it look like it was entirely their idea.

So I eventually consented to sex. Suffice it to say it was the most painful experience of my life. He fucked me like a Saigon whore with no regards for me, the pain, any of it. In fact, based on his repeatedly asking if it hurt after the fact makes me think that he got off on hurting me.

This part is gross, I’ll spoiler box it for the queasy.

I bled like I was having a miscarriage, and found several chunks of flesh in my underwear afterwards (I assume he just ripped the hymen right off instead of breaking it like normal.

Right away I knew subconsciously that something was wrong. I became physically ill for a week, throwing up, with chills and fever just like I had the flu. I even threw up immediately at the mention of his name, when my friend’s older brother asked about him.

I found out later, by convincing a mutual friend to let me listen in on their phone conversation, that this guy just liked to deflower virgins. I felt extremely violated, but even more so because I had let this guy manipulate me into consenting to sex. Not just talk me into it when I didn’t feel like it, or pressuring me, but carefully executed mind-fucks that I only recognized as an adult.

For many years I was that girl that randomly burst into tears during sex. I still actually have some issues with it, but it fucked me up pretty bad for a long time.

So… that’s my story.

Deep breath

I have to say I’m somewhat confused about the responses in this read. Either you consent or you don’t…right? If someone nags you for hours and gives you their sob story until eventually you give in…that’s consenting, isn’t it? If you’re emotionally confused and you give in…that’s consenting isn’t it? Please convince me otherwise. I’d like to understand the other perspective here.

RedRoses, I’m really sorry. I’d count that as rape since even though you consented, you were twelve. I’d hope that’s statutory rape in most places. And if he continued to do it to you even when you were in pain and upset, I’d consider that rape. The guy sounds really dangerous. I’m really sorry you had to go through that.

ETA:

Well, I entitled the thread “manipulative and/or not quite consensual sex” because I guess some of them can be ambiguous. The story I mentioned in the OP about being incessantly nagged at, I’d classify as consensual myself, but I thought it was interesting that Kobal brought up the point that how could it be consent if I didn’t want to, etc. I guess maybe I’ve had a lot of sex, but some of those events were more consensual than others, if that makes any sense.

I don’t know if you’re confused about my responses or not, but I never said anything that happened to me was non-consensual. Except, perhaps, for the time I woke up with him already in me. (Seriously, by the time a man is 50, he should know women need some warming up first and he’s a moron–unless he had a discussion with the woman first and she indicated she’d love to be woken up this way).

I was going off of the OP that said:

He was a selfish ass. It was consensual, but it’s not the kind of relationship I’d advise anyone to get into or stay with. If you say “Stop, this is hurting me,” and your partner keeps badgering you, you are not with someone who cares about you. If you stay with him, you’re not making a smart decision. What is so confusing about that?

But if you are referring to my experience and you have to ask what was wrong with what was going on, since gosh, I consented, believe me, you aren’t the kind of guy I’d ever consent to having sex with now that I’m older and wiser. :smiley:

Apologies, hobscrk777. In re-reading that part, I think it comes across as snarky. Basically, I just mean that I would never end up with a guy who badgered me, and I’d never consent to doing anything with him. I’d see the badgering as a problem. And odds are, I’d pick up on the fact that he was the type to be disrespectful long before the topic of sex came up.

The guy I was with sent out some vibes that I would now recognize as warning signs, and I would have lost interest in him pretty quickly, rather than getting sucked into going on that first date. And even if I did somehow go insane and consent to a first date, there would have been no sex, no chance to ever be in a position to agree to something that hurt, and no second date.

Young and stupid happens to most folks at some point in their lives. This one was mine.

I wasn’t going to elaborate on this, but RedRoses’ courage has inspired me.

Maybe it would be good if everybody could treat sex like doing the dishes, but everybody can’t. I know I can’t. You see, when I was 3 or 4, my stepdad had sexually abused me, and he went to prison for it, and it destroyed my mother’s marriage and she nearly lost her mind. Though I was not responsible, I felt responsible, since obviously if I hadn’t existed my mother would still be happily married.

Flash forward to me, 10 years old. I’ve got a new stepdad now, a man I love with my whole heart. He is everything those other stepdads could never hope to be. I can’t describe to you how much I loved this man, how loyal I was to him, how much I trusted him. Around the time I turned 11 or 12, he started with words, saying things no father in his right mind would say to a child. I knew what was coming, you know? I knew. For like a year he just tormented me with words, so that by the time the actual physical contact started I was already defeated. I didn’t want to tear my family apart again–my Mom was in love. Obviously there’s something wrong with me I’m a fucking child molester magnet! And he told me I was the only thing keeping him from leaving her. And I loved him. How I loved him. I knew what the repercussions would be, so I made the choice, as I made so many times during my childhood, to preserve my family by tolerating whatever I had to.

Well, it went on for a long time, and while I was never outright raped, it got progressively worse and I spent most nights in absolute terror that eventually it would come to that. People who saw us out in public assumed I was his wife. I began to have nightmares of being 30 years old and still stuck in this hellish existence where I had to pretend I was sexually interested in my adopted father. It went on until I was 17 years old. My entire adolescence was spent being fucked around with by this asshole. By the time I was 17 it was just a part of everyday existence, and I didn’t even question it anymore. I don’t even know who I would have been, as a sexual being, if it weren’t for having my sexuality hijacked from such a young age. And when I finally told the truth, very few people, including my mother (who actually did know something was going on), took my side.

So you see, at this time when I was seeing this idiot high school boy, having my first consensual experience, I was still dealing with the aftermath of this bizarre childhood. I was working full-time to support myself while attending high school, my mother was threatening to disown me, and worst of all, I was beginning to realize that my stepfather had never loved me and had basically been using me. So in essence, he died when I was 17. I was a newly emancipated child taking on adult responsibilities in the middle of this tremendous traumatic emotional crisis, and here was this guy who was willing to listen about all of this shit. And that’s when he lied to me about himself having been abused, to get in my pants.

So while I think in a perfect world sex would be divorced from emotion, for some of us it can never be. When I’m horny and want sex, I can go and have a lovely, adventurous time. But if I’m just doing my own thing and my husband approaches me–hell, sometimes even if he just hugs me – every single fiber of my being is screaming no no no no no, not again, please just leave me alone! When my relationship first began, I tried to ignore the internal dialogue and do it anyway, but it just ended in tears (and sometimes violent flashbacks.)

So for me, personally, I can’t think of anything more horrible than doing something sexual when you don’t want to. Not much like the dishes at all. :frowning:

RedRoses, that is one of the most horrible things I have ever heard. I am so, so sorry you had to go through that, and it was definitely not consensual. I hope you don’t feel in any way responsible for what he did, because he is 100% to blame.

Err… I think you should. May I ask how old you are now?

The whole point of this thread is adressing circumstances when consent was given, but not really meant.
Certainly, in the legal sense of the word, consent was freely given in most of the anecdotes brought up so far. But as I said in the original rape thread, “legal” and “right” aren’t synonymous.

Put another way, while obtaining consent in the first place is important*, the manner in which consent is obtained matters as well. Maybe not in a court of law, but certainly in an ethical sense.

  • And the award for Understatement of the Year 2008 goes to… :stuck_out_tongue:

I agree, it is a bit silly, but I like it anyways. I gotta admit though, I am curious as to why I enjoy doing that, sometimes… I really don’t know why I enjoy it.

Yeah, I tried to think of a word other than ‘silly’ so my post wouldn’t read like a backhanded way of chastising you. I guess I meant that it just doesn’t suit me personally, probably because my boat is floated by enthusiasm* and I probably subconsciously assume that men like that too, so it wouldn’t occur to me to use ‘no’ as a tactic for adding to sexual excitement, it just seems too roundabout a way of getting to the ‘yes!’ which is the part that I like! Though I have no issue with people like yourself for whom ‘no’ works and did not mean to suggest silliness on your part.
*Not to suggest that enthusiasm does not also provide you with buoyancy [/boat metaphor].

I just wanted to personally thank you for sharing. {{olives}} And Roses too! Those stories sound so dreadful I don’t know if I’m more angry or sad.

That sounds like a very strange and unpleasant situation indeed. The behavior of the friends seems pretty weird to me, but girls can sometimes be very aggressive and narrow-minded when it comes to “helping” a friend. They probably had an unrealistic idea of the situation and may have enjoyed being part of a romantic drama. It’s a shame they did not stop to think more about what was really best for their friend, or for you.

What a sad story. I’m so sorry that happened to you.

RedRosesForMe, if you don’t want to call it rape then I don’t think you need to. I can understand that you wouldn’t want to deny the fact that you did consent. On the other hand, if you’re concerned that you don’t have the right to call it rape then I want to assure you that you do. What that guy did to you was both illegal and cruel.

I think a lot of women (and probably men too, although I know less about that subject) who have been sexually assaulted or raped hesitate to use those words because they feel it’s unfair to those who have suffered even worse or because they feel guilty about being upset over something that wasn’t as bad as it could have been. But there are all kinds of situations that can fairly and accurately be called rape, even though some are worse than others.

I guess my point is that I hope the question of what word to use isn’t a bigger deal for you than it needs to be. What happened to you was legally rape, but your life isn’t taking place in a courtroom so you can use whatever word you feel is most appropriate.