Manipulative and/or not quite consensual sex but not rape?

[Nzinga_Seated]

@Buckler_of_Swashing

Yeah, I tried to think of a word other than ‘silly’ so my post wouldn’t read like a backhanded way of chastising you. I guess I meant that it just doesn’t suit me personally, probably because my boat is floated by enthusiasm* and I probably subconsciously assume that men like that too, so it wouldn’t occur to me to use ‘no’ as a tactic for adding to sexual excitement, it just seems too roundabout a way of getting to the ‘yes!’ which is the part that I like! Though I have no issue with people like yourself for whom ‘no’ works and did not mean to suggest silliness on your part.
*Not to suggest that enthusiasm does not also provide you with buoyancy [/boat metaphor].

Oh, I am not easily offended, Buckler. I actually agree it is a bit silly. I think I know why I do it, though, after mulling it over. I think it has to do with wanting him to beg/‘force’ me. I think it makes me feel desirable when he does that, which may be a form of a self esteem issue. Oddly enough, my husband has always expressed only desire for me physically, and I do feel desirable, so I still don’t know why this kind of play excites me sometimes. Why should I even *want *him to beg/‘force’ me? I am as confused as ever, I guess.

[Arglefraster]

@Lamia

I think a lot of women (and probably men too, although I know less about that subject) who have been sexually assaulted or raped hesitate to use those words because they feel it’s unfair to those who have suffered even worse or because they feel guilty about being upset over something that wasn’t as bad as it could have been. But there are all kinds of situations that can fairly and accurately be called rape, even though some are worse than others.

An old friend of mine went through this. Her’s was a date rape situation. They were making out, he was on top of her, and started taking off her clothes. She said “Wait, I’m not ready for this yet.”, so he physically held her down and had sex with her anyway. The whole time she was crying and asking him to please stop. But he never actually hurt her, and she didn’t physically struggle to get free. Her therapist wanted her to go to a rape victim support group, but she refused to go because she was sure the other girls would hate her for equating her (in her words) “not so bad experience” with more horrific cases. She thought that since she wasn’t physically hurt, it wasn’t “real” rape, but she absolutely did not consent in any way, shape, or form.

[msmith537]

@Lamia

I don’t have a cite for this because it’s an article I found by accident while looking for something else*, but a while back I read a study of 20-something men and women from the 1980s that said that far more men than women reporting having had sex when they didn’t really want to. A very common reason for these young men was peer pressure – they didn’t want their friends to hear that they’d turned down sex with a willing woman. Peer pressure was very rarely a reason women gave for having sex.

I would think an even more common reason for this is that whethere they are in the mood or not, most men wouldn’t want to turn down sex with a willing woman. I mean you don’t know when you might be getting some again.
I have to say though that I am having a problem with people equating real rape and sexual assault with “oh he coerced me into having sex and it wasn’t very good”.

[Freudian_Slit]

@msmith537

I have to say though that I am having a problem with people equating real rape and sexual assault with “oh he coerced me into having sex and it wasn’t very good”.

I don’t think anyone is doing that here, though. I said clearly in the thread title that I was asking about experiences that weren’t rape. A lot of people have chimed in and put in experiences that do sound like rape, which is depressing (both that people have had these awful things happen and that they don’t feel they have the “right” to call what happened rape). But I’m in no way saying that what happened to me was rape, just that it made me feel really bad for a long time and that it’s made me a more wary person.

[Spice_Weasel]

@Autolycus

I just wanted to personally thank you for sharing. {{olives}} And Roses too! Those stories sound so dreadful I don’t know if I’m more angry or sad.

Thanks, Auto. You’re such a sweet guy. I hope we get to meet someday.

I debated whether or not to post about it, and the reason I did, quite simply, is it’s been bothering me a lot lately and since I just moved I don’t really have anyone I trust enough to discuss it with. I think RedRoses’ post just took me back to how much it hurts to have your trust violated like that. Both are totally different scenarios, but at base there is this underlying sense of betrayal. Betrayal is hard enough as an adult, but as a child, especially when you are already emotionally vulnerable, it’s just too much.

[Spice_Weasel]

@msmith537

I have to say though that I am having a problem with people equating real rape and sexual assault with “oh he coerced me into having sex and it wasn’t very good”.

Nobody is doing that here. Have you read the thread? Can you point out a specific instance where that is being done? Because from what I can tell, every single person here has posted their story and acknowledged responsibility for it.

[Santo_Rugger]

First, my empathy goes out to those that have shared their personal stories.

@msmith537

I have to say though that I am having a problem with people equating real rape and sexual assault with “oh he coerced me into having sex and it wasn’t very good”.

Strongly agree.

@Freudian_Slit

I don’t think anyone is doing that here, though.

Strongly disagree.

I said clearly in the thread title that I was asking about experiences that weren’t rape. A lot of people have chimed in and put in experiences that do sound like rape…

That’s because they are. Statutory rape and child molestation. Those are most certainly considered legally rape, which is not what the intent of the OP was.

I’m sorry for sounding so callous, but mssmith is right on the money here, and it’s bullshit for these types of cases to be lumped in with somebody who asks a somebody for sex once, is turned down, asks them again, and then they say yes.

[Cat_Fight]

@Santo_Rugger

I’m sorry for sounding so callous, but mssmith is right on the money here, and it’s bullshit for these types of cases to be lumped in with somebody who asks a somebody for sex once, is turned down, asks them again, and then they say yes.

But this was the almost inevitable outcome of this thread. While I hate to even use the term ‘grey area’ when it comes to rape (what after the whole ‘grey rape’ debacle a few months back), this is where some sexual experiences lie. Victims or not, plenty of people struggle to make sense of them. And the few posters who did post what sound (to me) sound like prosecutable offenses pointed out that they did not, at least at the moment, feel they were being raped.

[Freudian_Slit]

@Santo_Rugger

I’m sorry for sounding so callous, but mssmith is right on the money here, and it’s bullshit for these types of cases to be lumped in with somebody who asks a somebody for sex once, is turned down, asks them again, and then they say yes.

Well, that wasn’t my intention. I can’t exactly purge the thread of all the examples that actually are rape.

@Cat_Fight

But this was the almost inevitable outcome of this thread. While I hate to even use the term ‘grey area’ when it comes to rape (what after the whole ‘grey rape’ debacle a few months back), this is where some sexual experiences lie. Victims or not, plenty of people struggle to make sense of them. And the few posters who did post what sound (to me) sound like prosecutable offenses pointed out that they did not, at least at the moment, feel they were being raped.

I thought about using the word “grey rape” for the title, but I didn’t want to make it sound like anytime you have sex when you don’t want to, it’s rape. I just wanted to see if other people had experiences that weren’t rape but that were more than just bad sex.

[Santo_Rugger]

@Cat_Fight

But this was the almost inevitable outcome of this thread.

Upon a bit of thought, I agree. I imagine a thread titled, “Who Was Raped or Molested?” wouldn’t get the type of helpful, healthy responses that were posted here.

While I hate to even use the term ‘grey area’ when it comes to rape (what after the whole ‘grey rape’ debacle a few months back), this is where some sexual experiences lie.

Oh my! I hadn’t come across that yet, but on the other side of my ire is directed at mainstream sources (in this case, a supposedly* feminist magazine) that is justifying these as “gray”, when they’re clearly not.

Victims or not, plenty of people struggle to make sense of them. And the few posters who did post what sound (to me) sound like prosecutable offenses pointed out that they did not, at least at the moment, feel they were being raped.

That’s a valid point, and I again apologize for sounding heartless. However, I stand by my claim that it’s bullshit, through no fault of their own, that these situations were presented as being acceptable at the time. So, there’s the other third of my anger, directed at the guys who are doing that type of thing. I also stand by my opinion that these cases shouldn’t be classed along with the situations like that in the OP, but agree that there may not be a better place for people to be able to share and vent.

I think the separation, in my mind at least, is that a lot of these “gray” cases, for lack of a better term, involve a lot of abuse at a non-sexual level. So much that the sexual part just becomes a manifestation of the other types of abuse.

[Santo_Rugger]

@Freudian_Slit

Well, that wasn’t my intention. I can’t exactly purge the thread of all the examples that actually are rape.

I didn’t direct this at you, but you did say:

@Freudian_Slit

I don’t think anyone is doing that here, though.

Which is patently false.

@olivesmarch4th

Nobody is doing that here. Have you read the thread? Can you point out a specific instance where that is being done? Because from what I can tell, every single person here has posted their story and acknowledged responsibility for it.

Yes. There are at least two. Those are cases of child molestation, however you want to slice it.

Sorry, I’m probably going to bow out of this thread, but I had to voice my thoughts on this matter.

[Spice_Weasel]

@Santo_Rugger

That’s because they are. Statutory rape and child molestation. Those are most certainly considered legally rape, which is not what the intent of the OP was.

I’m sorry for sounding so callous, but mssmith is right on the money here, and it’s bullshit for these types of cases to be lumped in with somebody who asks a somebody for sex once, is turned down, asks them again, and then they say yes.

For the sake of clarity here.

My initial post in this thread was about an experience with my first boyfriend that would fit the definition of the OP. It wasn’t until clairobscur and I started discussing whether sex should (or can be) completely divorced from emotion that I talked about a nonconsensual experience to make a different point. Also, since some people were scratching their heads about why anyone would get into these negative, consensual experiences in the first place, I wished to explain how a background such as mine can lead to making those mistakes out of sheer ignorance, or confusion, or what have you. The people who have posted about their consensual, negative experiences overwhelmingly acknowledge it was because they were young and stupid.

RedRoses appears to be genuinely unaware that what happened to her was rape, which is pretty normal because when you’re at that age you might sure as hell feel like you’re making a decision of your own free will, or fool yourself into believing you have control over a situation just to make yourself feel better. Now what a lot of people have done is make it clear that RedRoses’ situation does not fit the definition of the OP, because for one thing 12-year-olds can’t consent by definition, and for another thing she was completely powerless to stop him from hurting her.

It was not my intention to imply that my own experience with my stepfather was consensual, because while I didn’t claw or scratch or kick I was being held emotionally hostage and I can guarantee you that internally I was doing everything I could to get away. I was both physically afraid of the consequences of saying no and also afraid he would stop loving me, or I was doing something wrong, or he would tell my Mom (as weirdly enough, my first stepdad did) and then my family would be destroyed yet again, for the same stupid reason. I didn’t always know it was abuse, and I didn’t always know I wasn’t responsible, but I’ve known for a long time now.

And I don’t think anyone intended for RedRoses’ experience to be confused with what was being discussed here either.

I also want to say that once you have already been mistreated that way, even if there is a situation that is legally entirely consensual, it can feel nonconsensual. While I obviously would still take responsibility for what I did with my first boyfriend, I really can’t control the way the experience made me feel.

[gurujulp]

@Nzinga_Seated

Oh, I am not easily offended, Buckler. I actually agree it is a bit silly. I think I know why I do it, though, after mulling it over. I think it has to do with wanting him to beg/‘force’ me. I think it makes me feel desirable when he does that, which may be a form of a self esteem issue. Oddly enough, my husband has always expressed only desire for me physically, and I do feel desirable, so I still don’t know why this kind of play excites me sometimes. Why should I even *want *him to beg/‘force’ me? I am as confused as ever, I guess.

Probably the majority of my adult relationships have been with women who liked a ‘healthy’ sort of force (understanding that it is all playacting)- which is odd, as it completely turns me off, even in fun.

When I have tried to help fulfill fantasy in this way, I usually end up having to call the situation off, as it is just too silly to be playacting that way- performance issues, you understand.

An odd form of compromise is usually what comes about, which allows us each to be happy.

That’s enough of that hijack…

I really appreciate the candor shown in this thread. I really hope I haven’t been one of ‘those’ guys at any point, although I don’t think I can rule it out altogether.

And for those of you who have shared the more painful issues- I am truly sorry that such things happened to you.

[LIV86]

@clairobscur

I read your comment in this thread, and was nonplused. I’m a guy (I mention it because many posters get it wrong) and I had sex with my partner because she was insisting on it (not necessarily in words, but simply by not being willing to let me alone), despite not being in the mood, or like you when I would rather sleep and so on. In this instance, you just have to concentrate so that you won’t “fail” (not a problem for women), or alternatively find another way to satisfy your partner’s urges, all the way hoping that it will be over soon so you can sleep or do whatever else you feel like doing. And I’m sure that many a time my partners had sex with me when really, they would rather have slept.
Not only I wouldn’t equate it to rape, but I wouldn’t even compare it to rape. I would compare it to eventually agreeing to watch a movie you know is going to bore you out because your partner really, really wants to see it.
The problem in my opinion, is that some people think of sex as a really, really big deal, when actually, it isn’t. People have sex all the time with their partners, sometimes enthusiastically, and sometimes much less so, they are involved together in tons of activities sometimes enthusiastically and sometimes much less so (“We really should pay a visit to my parents over the weekend”), and all that is just part of being a couple. Sex sure is an important part, but not something that should be over thought as in “Do I really, really, really want to have sex and should I abstain if I’m not 100% sure?”, “Should I feel violated because his genitals were in contact with mine for the 462th time in two years, except that this time I’d rather have read a book instead?” “Is it attempted rape because it’s the third time he asks in a row, when I told him I didn’t feel like it?”, and so on.
If you wouldn’t give it a second thought if it involved whatever other mundane activity your partner was insisting on, then you shouldn’t give it a second thought when it involves sex, either. If you’re not wondering if eventually giving in and watching the boring movie at the theater is akin to kidnapping, then you shouldn’t wonder if eventually giving in and having boring sex is akin to rape, in my opinion.

I dont think a partner should be pressured into any activity they are not comfortable with regardless if it is visiting in laws or having sex. Sex is more of an extreme issue because it violates your personal space, which we are all taught as children and adults to respect. But regardless of the activity you lack respect regardless if you convince your partner to go to a movie they truly don’t want to see or visit in laws that they truly dont want to visit. RESPECT IS RESPECT manipulating anyone to do ANYTHING is wrong.

[Ellen_Cherry]

This is an old thread and on a sensitive subject. Some of the participants may not want to talk about it again, so for that reason I’m closing it. If someone wants to broach the subject in a new thread, please feel free.