Manners: Who needs them?

Great Debates
81

Responding to Captain Amazing, KellyM, and msmith537, and others regarding table manners that are now useless except for their cosmetic purpose.

There’s a difference between a reason something should be done at the table, and a rationalization after the fact for a behavior that’s become tradition. Several items I identified are not now, and never were productive in the sense it was less trouble to do them than not to do them.

This is happening: someone, either not reasoning clearly, or trying to invent an artificial manner, suddenly contrived a completely new behavior. (I’ll just make something up: You shouldn’t put your glass down in exactly the same place you took it from.) The next stage for this diva inventor of manners (who’s already fallen in love with their idea), is to figure out why such a thing should be true. (In fact, while writing this, I’ve just figured out two reasons for mine.) Then they tell husband, friends, children all about the important manner. Friends, wanting to be in on the latest fad, immediately buy it. Anybody who’s not with the “in crowd” suddenly looks like they have no manners. Instant success!

The hallmark of such contrived manners is, for example, that the “problem” the manner is supposed to avoid almost never happens, or that the “damage” caused by not being mannered is virtually nil.

… now… here’s the rationalization (whoop… I mean “justification”) for my manner about not replacing a glass in exactly the same place. (I really don’t see why everyone didn’t know this, already!)

  1. It’s difficult to quickly tell whether a glass is going to leave a ring, particularly on a tablecloth, where the moisture would be hidden. Therefore, it’s always safer to place the glass somewhere else each time it’s put down. You wouldn’t want to ruin your hostess’ furniture!

  2. Your glass might be blocking a space your neighbor or hostess wants to use for another item. Moving the glass gives them an opportunity to make use of the space without having to trouble you about it.

Seems pretty reasonable to me.

Now, addressing the points made in support of what I labeled useless manners:

“At a crowded table, your elbows on the table will get in the way of the person to your side.” and “Not only do elbows on the table look sloppy, you have a better chance of knocking something over.”

No. An elbow on the table is much more predictable than one jumping up and down at my side where I can barely see it. Elbows aren’t placed anywhere near where something could be knocked over. Reaching for something with elbow on the table could certainly cause an accident, but that’s not what the rule says.

(Use of a salad fork) “This one is relevant when dinner is being served in courses. You are supposed to leave dirty utensils on the plate (putting them on the tablecloth unnecessarily stains it, which is disrespectful to the person to who has to clean the tablecloth).”

Ok, I buy this in situations where the salad plate disappears before the dinner plate is on the table. But not in other situations.

(More on salad forks) “Why would you advocate the soup spoon but not the salad fork?”

The soup spoon should exist, because it would be difficult to eat soup without it. The salad fork has exactly the same capabilities as the dinner fork, and is superfluous.

(Putting teaspoon in saucer) “Protects the tablecloth from unnecessary stains. Yes, you may stain the tablecloth anyway, but you are obliged to try to minimize the risk. (This is also part of why you should never blow your nose in your napkin.)”

It’s a little hard to imagine a formal tea without dishes for edibles. The teaspoon could go there. If not, of course, it stays in the saucer.

“Blowing my nose in my napkin?” Ok, but clearly assumes I can get to my handkerchief in time. I vote this rule is waved at Thai restaurants.

(Helping a lady up and down from her chair) “Not as relevant now as it used to be when women’s formal garments seriously hampered movement. Try pulling your own chair out while wearing a corset and bustle sometime.”

Hmmm. Maybe it’s bad manners to wear a corset and bustle that force other people to make accommodations for you? … I have no idea whether a bustle is really this cumbersome. I doubt it. What happens when the ladies decide to have tea without male company?

(On putting your regular knife in the butter) “This avoids the risk of transferring bread crumbs to the common butter server.”

Grumble. Oh, maybe. But it seems like the rule might better be: “Clean your knife before putting it in the butter”.

Especially given examples which everyone agrees are passe, such as the raising a pinkie from a teacup, it seems like the deficiency in manners is that there’s no way to retract a manner that’s no longer appropriate. Perhaps it’s no wonder so many people object to following them blindly.

82

Amusing scenario, but that’s not how it happens, for the most part. Making sure large numbers of diners are comfortable and everything goes smoothly can be a harrying, nerve-wracking event. I doubt many people have had the inclination to “invent new rules” just because (the introduction of the fork as an eating utensil is probably an exception to this). :slight_smile:

Hmmn… how tall are you? I’ve been at table with many a man, who, if they ate with their elbows on the table, wouldn’t leave much room for other diners!

Well, to be honest, I don’t own any soup spoons. A teaspoon or tablespoon works just as well. (I do own sugar shells and a pair of grape shears, though!_

The tines on salad forks are shorter because salad vegetables are easier to stab through then meats and other entrees. Back in the days when a bride received an expensive china service as a wedding present or as part of her trousseau, salad forks prevented the pattern from being scratched. I’ll agree that nowadays they are superfluous, and in fact, I don’t see them all that often.

Fashions can be adopted so prevalently that to abjure them is considered downright indecent. In the days of the bustle, such was the case. Bustles and hoops are both very cumbersome. Ladies would have tea at a tea table, using the armless “ladies’ chairs” that were specifically manufactured to help women cope with their cumbersome garments. At tea, you do not pull your chair up to the table, as you do at dinner.

:eek: On what?!

As far as opening doors for women, on most occasions women are more encumbered than men: they don’t put pockets in our clothing, we have to lug around purses.

83

I think that good manners and etiquette are not only a way of showing respect for others, as well as having practical reasons for their develpment for the most part, but are also a way of showing respect for yourself. I believe that knowing and following the basic rules of etiquette and having good manners is an achievement for a person as an individual, since it shows that he is interested in making others confortable when they are around them. This even includes, in my perspective, louts (as per the definition given above), as well as snobs. I don’t want to be either a snob or a lout, but I don’t want people to make a conclusion that I am either one of these “categories” because of actions or attitudes that can be avoided. Therefore, having good manners and conducting yourself in a respectful and proper way is, for me, a way to facilitate people getting to know me as a person. If I want people to know I am unique and that I am different, I don’t want it to be just because I eat with my elbows on the table, or cut my steak all at the same time, but because I have a unique perspective on life and/or a valuable opinion.

In reference to the thread you mentioned before, refusing to comply with a request made by the SO shows selfishness on the part of the husband, since the reason given for cutting all the meat before eating was his own “convenience” (he likes it that way). This is the behaviour I would expect from an immature person, who cannot realise that his/her own confort/convenience are not the most important factors in a persons life, impact on other peoples’ opinion of themselves and give way to perspectives of that person based on reasons different from their thoughts and personality.

84

I suppose that like any other social custom, manners evolve over time. In other words, if enough people see you eating a candybar with a knife and fork like George Costanza, it becomes “good manners” to eat a candybar with a knife and fork.

Part of good manners is following the customs of the particular place where you are a guest. For example, if I am at a black tie function where traditional manners are expected, it is up to me to learn what is appropriate behavior. Showing up in a T-shirt, putting my elbows on the table, etc, etc sends a message that I don’t respect the other people in the room.

85

Oh, lothos2002, well spoke indeed! What a great post!

86

But making that request is placing pods comfort above the comfort and convenience of her husband. When two people do something differently, the one who insists the other change is being a jerk, unless they have a damn good reason.

87

I always thought there was a contradiction between the (admittedly somewhat outdated) concept that the men should be looking after and protecting the women, yet you should open a door for a woman and allow her to proceed you into unknown danger! :wink:

88

I disagree, since they are married, and apparently love each other. If this was just a friend or an acquaintance, then it would be inappropriate for one to make such a request or point out unseemely behaviour, since the remark is of a personal nature. Nevertheless, since they are married, the relationship is one of mutual aid and understanding, where, in IMHO, a person should consider the way others perceive their SO as well as how they perceive them.

Therefore, pointing out that she doesn’t like it when he does that kind of thing in company is saying “I care how others perceive you and I don’t want them to make value judgements about you based on a silly thing like cutting your meat”, making my argument extensive to your SO is a sign of respect, care and love for them. This is why mothers and parents worry about their children’s manners, even more so than their own in some cases I have witnessed (YMMV).

If the husband was a mature person, he would appreciate this and attempt to change said behaviour. The pracical reasons for it have been explained at lenght throught this thread and the one referenced. I believe that stating “I like it this way and I don’t see any reason why I should do otherwise” has a lot more selfishness than the request. Just count the “you’s” and “I’s” in each one.

89

btw, thank you squish
(my first compliment in the board!!) Lothos is happy!

90

How is cutting your meat differently than someone else “unseemly”?

Practical reasons for it have not been discussed in this thread, due to the fact that there are no practical reasons to change the way you cut your meat.
Point one: “don’t eat fast”; rebuttal: that has nothing to do with how you cut your meat.
Point two: “it takes your attention away from conversation”; rebuttal: cutting your meat all through dinner distracts you much more than getting the work out of the way beforehand.
Point three: “your steak wont be warm and juicy”; rebuttal: this is a personal preference. Would you appreciate being called a heathen because you order your steak cooked well done while your SO orders it medium rare?

Respect cuts both ways, relationships are all about compromise.

91

I think you missed the whole point of my post.

I will try to explain once more.

The practical resons for not cutting all your meat before you eat it might not be convincing to you personally, and you might rebute all of them on a rational basis. Your personal thinking and rationalisation, however valid you think it might be, does not take away from the fact that other people regard this behaviour as unseemely, for whatever reason they might have of their own, however strange and irrational it might seem to you in particular. As I stated before, I don’t want people to make an assumption of me (or my SO, for that matter) based on a behaviour that is easily changed, I would like them to get to know me (or my SO) because of who I am, my opinions and my personality.

As far as the relationship issue you brought up, I agree that respect cuts both ways, and relationships are all about compromise. In this case, the OP in the other thread stated that she did not comment on this when they were alone, only when in company.

It is not about respecting her husband’s preferences or tases, but wanting others (third parties, if you will) to respect him and not make value judgements based on his behaviour. What you are advocating is an unbalanced “playing field”. The wife did not make the request because it was more convenient for her, but because she feels it is beneficial for him not to behave that way.

You might not agree with a given custom, and finding rebuttals for the reasons why other people follow that custom does not invalidate the fact that other people will continue to follow said custom, and therefore find it unseemely when someone within that culture, does not.

To elaborate further, think about it in terms of a different conduct, the husband picking his nose at the table, or spitting on the floor, for example. Would you not expect the wife to remark: “That is unseemely and it disgusts people, even though it doesn’t bother me, so please stop it”. Well, some people (as evidenced by the positions stated in the other thread) think that, whatever the reason for it, cutting all your meat before you start eating is not good manners, so, the wife is right to point it out to him, and the husband is selfish and immature by “sticking to his guns” on that issue.

The decision is, of course, up to the husband, and he might think that his wife is rude for even suggesting that he should change. That does not change the way others perceive him.

92

Well, lothos, I’m of the feeling that the opinions of complete strangers take far less precedence than the feelings of my loved ones. When I go to the movies with my boyfriend it may upset some narrow-minded others if we hold hands, I don’t give a fuck what they think.
I don’t yearn for the approval of snobs and elitists, and would never put my friends down to get their approval. The only valid rule of ettiquette is to treat others with respect, anything else is an affectation.

93

I remember reading in a German book that good manners in Germany is the man going through the door first, for just this reason. It made so much sense to me that for months afterward I’d go up to a door, pause, then walk straight through. A couple of the looks I got were priceless!

94

lothos, I think I understand your point, but it was that very part of Squish’s reasoning that I was questioning.

It seems a consistent point in everyone’s posts that one should always try to be courteous and not do things which might really be disgusting and/or unhealthy.

There is a world of difference between spitting (which I think pretty much everyone in this thread would agree is likely to be disgusting to “company”), and cutting up meat before eating it (which I would define as a rule of etiquette: it is not necessary to the maintenance of health and harmony around the dinner table).

In the example that Squish used, she saw a date’s failure to engage in a rule of etiquette (a gentleman opens a car door for a lady) as an indication that he was generally boorish (NB, I don’t know what he did on the rest of the date, maybe he ate his bogies at table as well!). Her reasoning seemed to be that someone who was really considerate of her feelings would have indulged in this role-play in order to demonstrate his consideration.

To my mind what characterises etiquette, and what distinguishes it from courtesy, is this kind of circular justification of ritual:

A and B are both of the opinion that it does not matter when or how one cuts up one’s meat.

A is aware that some people believe it is ill mannered to cut up all your meat before eating it.

A asks B not to cut up his meat before eating it.

B refuses, knowing that A thinks it doesn’t really matter.

A feels all cross at B, because, like, A was only asking in B’s best interests because B’s a really nice person and A doesn’t want people thinking he’s a pig, and anyway, now B has refused to do something A asked, isn’t that really bad manners because shouldn’t B do it just because A asked, since he’s meant to love her and all, and B’s a total pig and… oh, wait…

I think the above is really a bit unfair on B, to be honest :slight_smile:

Embra

95

Hmmn…if you’re asking for a judgment call, I’d say that in the meat-cutting matter B is slightly in the right in that I doubt anyone will really notice how he cuts his meat. My father was one of those who mixed meat, gravy/sauce, potatoes and vegetables all together in a vaguely unsettling mess on his plate and ate it with a fork and a piece of bread. Bad etiquette? You bet! Worth making a fuss over? Nah, not really.

If Daddy had ever not opened a door or tipped his hat to a lady–any lady, or said, “Come on–you don’t really expect me to open the door, do you?”–bad etiquette, bad manners and definitely worth making a fuss over.

Why the difference? The degree to which his behaviour indicated or did not indicate respect or consideration for others.

96

Hmm… What you say makes me wonder whether some things pass over time from courtesy into etiquette.

Obviously, I deliberately picked up on the meat thing because it is so trivial (and because I’d never heard of it before, like the “always accept the offer of refreshment when a guest, even if you don’t actually want any” rule).

I would place the opening of doors for ladies specifically, and the tipping of hats in the etiquette category as well. The problem seems to be that although I personally take no offence whatsoever from a man not going out of his way to open doors for me (let alone tip his hat), some people still hold these behaviours to be common politeness. I suppose that they may be in transition between courtesy and etiquette. Mind you, I would agree that making a point of not opening a door is rude!

The thing I am wary of is hearing people say that “X was so rude because he didn’t tip his hat”, or “I don’t look forward to lunching with Y again, he obviously had no idea about salad forks!” It sounds as though X is defined entirely by his laxity in hat-tipping, or Y by his gracelessness with cutlery. A lack of knowledge regarding customs (particularly those which might be generationally or socially specific) does not necessarily equate to rudeness.

Anyway, enough of this banter. Who’s for cocktails? Since they’re on me, I respectfully request no dress code whatsoever. Just yell when you arrive and my trained monkey will take your coat (unless of course, you prefer to keep it on indoors)…

Embra

97

Ah, a chilled Manhattan would be lovely! :slight_smile:

98

One was going to make a conscious effort not to introduce “I” and “me” into posts, as per lothos2002, but for this comment it seems unavoidable.

Squish, “what Daddy did” (or what Mom did) definitely plays a role in manners, now that I consider.

My Father is not a universally talented individual. However he does a few things well, and a couple exceptionally well. One of his strengths is polite and sincere manners. When I was reading your post, suddenly I flashed on me as a young boy, observing the extremely good reception he got from from good manners. (Particularly from women.) He told me manners were essential for a cultured adult, and unlike so much of what he told me, I believed him.

So, adding another dimension to the OP about whether manners are “class related” or superfluous, include that manners make far more sense to someone who’s seen them effectively used.

99

Yup! People (especially women) are still impressed by good manners, whether they realize it or not. :slight_smile: