In this story Lance Cpl. Stephen Funk declares that he wants out of the Marines because he’s a conscientious objector, and oh by the way gay too. Never mind the gay angle, here’s my question, in an all volunteer armed forces how does the conscientious objector angle play?
I’m not in any way disparaging the views of those that are genuine conscientious objectors, war is not for everyone. But here’s a quote from the story:
Are you kidding me? The kid joins the Marines, and it’s only when he goes through boot that he figures out that killing is part of the job description? Didn’t his father’s Vietnam experience kinda clue him in?
IMO this guy decided, for reasons other than those stated, that he does not want to be put in harms way. And knowing the likely response to that from the Marines he, or his lawyer, has come up with this not so brilliant strategy. He’ll probably get his wish too, I know I wouldn’t want someone as wishy washy as this idiot covering my flank, and the Marine Corp is likely to agree. This is what the Admin Discharge For the Good of the Service was made for.
So there’s this kid, and his dad manages a munitions factory, and the kid starts working there, and then after he’s been working there for a while, he begins to realize that the whole point of making bombs is to kill people, and this makes him very uncomfortable, so he quits.
I don’t see a problem with that. Eighteen- and nineteen-year-olds can be extraordinarily clueless about “life” sometimes, and can start working at a munitions factory without really internalizing the fact that bombs are for killing people.
That’s what the ads say, right? Join up and get smart about all kinds of technological stuff and junk.
But, alas, IMO anyone who joins the military has to know what militaries are for if they even went through any schooling whatsoever. No dice, the guy should stay in service. Sorry, you had your chance to object before you signed up.
I hear a lot of stories about recruiters misleading people, but is this actually true? If someone did actually have their head stuck in the ground and didn’t realize you might have to actually kill people in the military, shouldn’t the recruiter inform them of that?
I really dislike arguing through analogies, but since you seem to like them here’s my reply.
So there’s this kid, and his dad is a mafia don, and the kid starts working for him, and then after he’s been working there for a while, he begins to realize that the whole point of the mafia is to rob, deal drugs, extort money and whack people, and this makes him very unconfortable, so he quits. And then when he’s indicted for racketeering he tells the judge: “But I didn’t know what the mafia was for!”. Once the laughter subsides in the courtroom the judge hands him a 20-30 year sentence.
I would someone to give me a plausible explanation of how someone could get to be of an age that would make them eligible for military service, and that they would otherwise be eligible for military service, and yet could not know that militaries are for killing people.
Funk can be separated from the Marine Corps via an Administrative Separation based on his being a Conscientious Objector. The character of service (honorable, etc.) listed on the discharge papers is predicated on his service to date. I’ve heard a number of people crying for Funk to receive a dishonarable discharge. Those folks fail to realize that such a discharge can only be ordered as part of sentence issued at court-martial. IIRC, the available characterizations for his service, absent a court-martial, are Other Than Honorable, General, and Honorable. Again IIRC, any administrative separation proceedings must be held in abeyance pending the outcome of any disciplinary proceedings, such as for being UA.
This posting brought to you by your friendly retired Personnelman First Class, Monty.
Monty, I’m pretty sure that being AWOL is probably grounds for a court martial, or at least a Captain’s Mast (I think the Marines have this too). Of course he turned himself in so it’ll probably be knocked down to Unauthorized Absence, which usually only gets you at worst a Bad Conduct Discharge and a couple of months in the brig.
His problem now is that he’s made this huge hoopla about his conscientious objector status AND his gay status. I think the combination of all will probably end up hurting his case more than helping.
Brought to you by the guy who worked as a brig guard in the Navy.
In my experience, yes. I’ve known people who have been recruited. They were lied to about what jobs they were going to get. They were lied to about how long they would be in and how much of a commitment they were making. They were dragged through endless tests and physicals and long nights in strange hotel rooms until they were so physically and emotionally worn down that they’d sign anything just to make it stop. When the guy your recruiting is crying his eyes out and saying “I don’t want to do this, I just want to die” as he signs the papers, that is probably a sign that he isn’t in the right state of mind to make such an important decision- not that that stopped them. We can argue that it is a neccesary process, but it is a pretty slimy one.
You ought to take a look at the pamphlets one day. There isn’t any stuff about “defending your country” or “learning discipline and honor” or anything that even alludes to the fact that the military’s primary existiance is to participate in wars. Instead, they emphasize college money, career training and (of all things) recreational activities. Honestly- the pamphlets talk about intramural basketball teams and on-base movie theaters. They sell it as if it is one big health club with a cheap grocery store and some job training thrown in. It really is playing on people to make their decision based on something other that a full understanding and desire to do what they are doing. I’m not at all surprised that people go into the military thinking it’s gonna be like some kind of super-posh tech school where they throw free money at you.
I am not a recruiter, nor have I ever been one, but I have never heard anyone describe their induction into the military this way, it certainly was not my personal experience, and I doubt that any contract signed under these conditions would be enforceable in any way.
Remember the military really really doesn’t want you there if you don’t want to be there. That doesn’t mean they roll out the red carpet if you say you want to go home, but they sure as hell don’t chain you to the barrack’s wall.
AWOL = UA, just different terminology for different branches, it’s all Art. 86 of the UCMJ.
Not sure what this Marine’s MOS is, but the Marine Corps will probably decide to move him to a non-combat MOS within a non-deployable unit. And as far as his being gay, that reason alone is not grounds for a discharge. It’s actually quite difficult to get a discharge due to being gay.
As far as recruiters not telling the truth, it did not happen to me. I knew the only reason a military exists is to kill people. Everything that happens until you are called upon to do so, is just down time. This guy is a scared little sissy.
And I think the charge is going to be worse than just UA, he’ll probably get charged with Art. 87 Missing Movement, which carries a higher penalty. Or they can try him for both.
Frankly I fail to see why his being gay means shit in this case. Regardless, he wants to be a Conscientious Objector? Fine, fine. I’d probably fall into the same category myself. He was a fool for going AWOL first, and now just keeps digging that hole deeper.
Recruiters tend to try and get the numbers in, and let the DI’s, RDC’s and such weed out the unfit for service types. When I was in boot camp, over half of my division washed out for various reasons, but mostly for failing the drug tests. Recruiters are the military’s sales force. Hard physical and psycological training are not a good sales pitch. Education and benefits are. You’ll end up getting both, but - get your job choice in writing, on a contract!
As to the OP, I saw plenty of people use the homosexual and/or CO route, true or not, when they decided the military was not for them anymore. The chance of those paths working greatly decreases when you’re facing UCMJ charges on other matters.
The guy is obviously not a team player, the military is the epitome of teamwork. It seems he’s is trying to avoid the Big Chicken Dinner and that’s all the more reason, I think, to feed it to him.
Didn’t anybody read the article? Funk is a Reservist in a support battalion. He signed up for a part-time job, one weekend a month. He didn’t so much “join the Army” as he got “hired on”.
The Marines “Recruiting” page for “I am a high school graduate” somehow doesn’t mention “being sent into combat to kill people”.
So you join the Marine Reserve, you get great health benefits, good pay, shopping discounts, you can keep your day job and just work for the Marines part-time. It sounds great. No mention of “oh, by the way, in case there’s ever a war anywhere you might–just might–have to go kill people.”
I don’t see a “coward” here; I see a kid who expected a part-time job in a support battalion and now finds himself actually being required to kill people. I don’t blame him one bit.
So it’s not like some broken-glass-chompin’ Born N’ Bred Yew Ess Muh-REEN is getting cold feet and letting down the side, or like he was too stupid to know what “Joining The Army” meant. :rolleyes:
Problem with this analogy here…
**The Mafia Kid was participating fully in Mafia activities; the Marines Corps Kid, so far, hasn’t been. In order for your analogy to be applicable, Cpl. Funk would have had to have gotten as far as actually killing people while in the Marines, and then decided to announce that he was “against war and killing” and wanted out.
And people do do that. And I don’t have any problem with that, either.
Also, racketeering is a crime, whereas killing people under the auspices of the U.S. Marine Corps isn’t, but that’s a minor nitpick.
In what world do you suppose a person would have to be raised and even remotely educated to not know that militaries fight wars?
Yes, and McDonalds is all about making me smile. Should I demand a refund when they give me food instead?
Pathetic. It’s the military, DDG. I can’t believe anyone expects me to even remotely consider the possibility that an eligible-for-service human being would not be aware that the military is for fighting.
I blame him. A lot of people enter the military expecting to not see combat in any way. This does not mean they are so oblivious to existence to have thought that it wasn’t what militaries are for.
That is exactly what it is like, except I don’t think people can be that stupid and still be eligible for service.
See, this is why I hate arguing through analogies, the meaning gets lost. Yes, participating in Mafia activities is a crime, and under the UCMJ so is going AWOL from the Marines. True, you don’t get 20-30 years, but you do break the law. In your own analogy you talk about “quitting” the job, there ain’t no quitting in the Marines. Not without their say so anyway.
I don’t mean to imply that this is the case here, but wouldn’t someone who objected to a specific war be a concientious objector, even if they accepted the need for wars in general?