Marine Gay Conscientious Objector

[even_sven]

*Originally posted by RTFirefly *
Pardon me if I want some evidence that this sorta stuff is part of the US military’s recruiting process, before giving it any credence. Even if you believe the military thinks this is a good recruitment approach, which I don’t believe, I’m surprised they’d have the budget for all this.

Well, they had the budget for a full background check on this guy- which I believe now runs around seventy thousand dollars. They were going to send him to language school even though he was only going to be a reserve. The person in question scored some pretty amazing results on every test they took- and he took lots. He was being recruited very heavily. They must have been spending thousands on this guy. They had people driving him to tests and on tours of bases and almost anything he asked for. Unfortunatly, it was also a pretty bad time in his life and not a time when he was at all mentally fit to make decisions. This had to be obvious. He was crying in front of his recruiters. He was breaking down, and I am 100% sure that the constant phone calls at odd hours, intimidating meetings and huge demands on his time were to try to make sure he broke down towards signing up instead of away from it.

The told him he was going to join the reserves in psy ops. They told him that should we ever get in a war and he get called up, he’d be in an office writing propaganda emails. They told him that psy ops reserves never get called up anyway, because there are enough psy ops people to cover any conflict they might get in

This is fundamentally not true, and it is all coming out now. Pretty much the entire psy ops division is reserves. There is no need to have psy ops people when there isn’t a war going on, so they keep them as reserves and they will get called up in a war. I’m sure you’ve noticed that psy ops people are playing a pretty important role in this war. They are doing things like going behind enemy lines. They are in great danger. They are certainly not sitting in offices writing emails.

My friend was lied to.

[Duck_Duck_Goose]

I would appreciate also your not including me in the “flame the CO” description

I was only referring to those posters who so far had had very little to say other than to hand this kid his white feather, and since you hadn’t posted to the thread yet, I don’t think it’s applicable to you.

We’re talking about someone’s life here, and that someone is in the midst of a difficult decision, a very unpopular one, and which he has made at least one mistake regarding his method of communicating his decision to his chain of command.

Second that. And since I actually have a kid who’s 18-going-on-19, I feel for this guy–my daughter could just as easily make a series of bad decisions, and wind up on Yahoo News.

I would really like to know what the five POWs from the 507th expected to happen when they (a) enlisted and (b) were shipped to Iraq.

[Monty]

Where to start? Where to start? {Sigh}

Let me tell you something, sven. Search the boards on my username and “Defense Language Institute.” I graduated from DLI.

*Originally posted by even sven *
Well, they had the budget for a full background check on this guy- which I believe now runs around seventy thousand dollars.

This guy isn’t the only one who gets his background somewhat scrutinized. Anyone who’s applying for a security clearance gets that. Also, the background check for DLI can, and often does, only get finished while the person concerned is still at DLI.

They were going to send him to language school even though he was only going to be a reserve.

See my postings above to see my take on “only a Reserve.” Reserve 98G (at least that’s what the MOS was during my stint in the Army are required to remain proficient in the foreign language they’ve been assigned to learn. Part of their monthly Reserve Drill and their Annual Military Training is devoted to testing and practicing same.

The person in question scored some pretty amazing results on every test they took- and he took lots.

I call BS on the person concerned’s story. Here’s what he took for that program: ASVAB (Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery) and DLAB (Defense Langauge Aptitude Battery). Well, maybe two tests constitute “lots” to that person.

He was being recruited very heavily.

Conversely, he must’ve been trying very hard to get into that program. It carries an enlistment bonus.

They must have been spending thousands on this guy.

Only if he passed the training.

They had people driving him to tests and on tours of bases and almost anything he asked for.

So he says. I can see the Recruiter providing transportation to the tests. Actually, the Recruiter doesn’t pay for that. It comes out of the unit budget, IIRC. You see, recruiting is kind of like their mission.

Unfortunatly, it was also a pretty bad time in his life and not a time when he was at all mentally fit to make decisions.

I’d like to see your license to practice medicine (or is this under the specific discipline of Psychiatry?).

This had to be obvious. He was crying in front of his recruiters. He was breaking down, and I am 100% sure that the constant phone calls at odd hours, intimidating meetings and huge demands on his time were to try to make sure he broke down towards signing up instead of away from it.

See above about accusing someone not present to defend himself.

The told him he was going to join the reserves in psy ops.

News Flash! 98G get assigned to Psychological Operations units! That’s their mission.

They told him that should we ever get in a war and he get called up, he’d be in an office writing propaganda emails.

No. That’s one part of it.

They told him that psy ops reserves never get called up anyway, because there are enough psy ops people to cover any conflict they might get in

I call BS on that. Heck, my former Reserve Unit (14th Psycological Operations Battalion) always had someone on Active Duty besides just the folks who competed for the AGR (Active Guard/Reserve) tours. At any rate, if the promise wasn’t on the contract, then it didn’t happen. I say this because for that person to enlist, he had to sign up.

This is fundamentally not true, and it is all coming out now.

I see very little truth in the story told to you. It just doesn’t add up.

Pretty much the entire psy ops division is reserves.

And that’s been a military secret for how long? Oh, yeah. Never!

There is no need to have psy ops people when there isn’t a war going on,

Incorrect.

so they keep them as reserves and they will get called up in a war.

No kidding. Thus the wording to that effect in the contract that person signed.

I’m sure you’ve noticed that psy ops people are playing a pretty important role in this war. They are doing things like going behind enemy lines. They are in great danger. They are certainly not sitting in offices writing emails.

Actually, some of them are sitting someplace writing e-mail as part of their PsyOps.

My friend was lied to.

Or maybe you just got lied to by someone not a Recruiter.

Now, there is a program in place for a person to be separated from the military based on a breach of contract. Go to the site I mentioned earlier and read the procedure for it. What you’ve related here doesn’t add up.

[John_Mace]

I was willing to give this guy the benefit of the doubt, but as I read more, I think he’s just an idiot. He brings up the fact that he’s gay to show that he learned about his anti-violence views by exposure to “gay bashing”. Give me a freakin break. Throw the guy in the brig, and get him OUT of the military!

[Monty]

Got any proof that Funk’s making stuff up, Mace? Or do you prefer to just go with the knee-jerking?

[deball]

***Originally posted by Monty *

A CO is not “using the rules to his advantage.” A homosexual is not “using the rules to his advantage.” Clearly, you’re not understanding what I, along with others, have said about what CO is and isn’t. Perhaps you could ask the questions you have about it and some of us can try to inform you. **

No questions about what CO is. I know, and I respect their choice. Like our former PN1, they should use the rules and proper channels for their seperation to their advantage. The military has guidelines for these situations. The CO needs to use these guidelines to get the admin sep. Granted, not a pain free process, but the Commanding Officer has to stick by them too.

**Observable medical condition. Thus a medically-based ADSEP. **

Observable where? In the base clinic? It’s not exactly hard to fake a condition when the docs have about 10 minutes to see you. Barring that you could always break your foot in the weight room.

Saw that one firsthand.

Sometimes you could even hear the plan beforehand. Barracks are gossipy places. In my experience, most of the time it occurred when someone got orders they loathed to accept, or when someone was failing from school and was about to be sent off as an undesignated seaman.

Instead of ranting…

I didn’t think I was ranting. I might be a little gruff. But you brought out the “p” word, a little harsh for the ivory tower I’d say.

I’ll simplify: CO’s are fine. It’s their right to be a CO. No truck with them at all. Homosexuals are fine by me too. Heck, mature people who are grown up and have decided what they are and like, are pretty much all fine in my book. UA is not fine, it puts the lives of others who depend on you at risk. (Think- Dropping your child off in a strange city, telling her you’ll be back shortly to pick her up, and then not coming back.) If you go UA there will be a discipinary procedure. If you attempt to use CO or homosexual as an excuse for violating the UCMJ, by implying you should be out of the military anyways or should have never been in, then you have no excuse. You should have taken the proper channels for a separation before you got into trouble…

[j_kat_251]

Maybe he thought, in the Marines, he would be only responsible for defending his country against invaders. Perhaps in this instance he would feel comfortable killing the enemy, but not when he is the actual invader, killing people who up to that point haven’t really done anything to him. Just a thought.

[John_Mace]

Monty: First of I didn’t say he was making stuff up. Secondly, he’s got to prove it, not me. He says he’s a C.O., and he’ll get his day in court. I said I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but the AWOL issue, and the whole gay angle isn’t going to help him. I hope his parents are smart enough to get him a good lawyer real fast.

[Monty]

deball:

What “p” word?

I’ll thank you to remember that my time in the military was not in an ivory tower.

Gossip is not evidence.

Your earlier assertion about Funk not being a team player is based on nothing.

[Monty]

Mace:

You certainly implied that he was making stuff up with your use of the quotation marks and the phrase “give me a break.”

Also, the military will provide him with a lawyer. It’s up to him if he wants to retain civilian counsel.

[John_Mace]

Harm and Mac would be my choice. Especially Mac.

[j_kat_251]

Methinks p word = pussy.

[Monty]

j_kat: Well, since I didn’t ever mention that word here, then whoever’s accusing me of using it is mistaken.

Mace: Regarding your comment,

Secondly, he’s got to prove it, not me.

No, actually, you are the one who has to prove what you’ve asserted here is true. This is still the GD forum, not IMHO or MPSIMS.

[John_Mace]

Well, let’s nitpick, shall we?

Actually, you made an assertion that I said he was making things up. You didn’t prove it, you just voiced an opinion. Your proof was that I put something in “” and thereford I was accusing him of making stuff up. Did it ever occur to you that the “” were there because I was quoting what he said? I took those words from his interview published in the local paper here.

I’ll stand by my statement. I didn’t say he made things up. And he IS the one who has to prove that since his case is based on his beliefs and he has to prove that those beliefs are real.

[Monty]

He has to prove his case to the appropriate authorities.

I provided the rationale I used to arrive at my description of your posts.

[/nitpicking done]

[deball]

Sorry about the late post…sleep and everything.

*Originally posted by Monty *
**deball:

What “p” word?

I’ll thank you to remember that my time in the military was not in an ivory tower. **

That was directed towards the person I was answering. Again, I respect your choice of going CO, standing your ground and using the proper channels to achieve that end.

**Your earlier assertion about Funk not being a team player is based on nothing. **

He did go UA. He failed to report when his unit was called up. I’d say that’s pretty much an anti-team player, as in, “Wake up, Funk is a no-show, everyone will have to take some of his watches until we get someone else.”

[Monty]

deball: Reread my posts, if you don’t mind. I am not a Conscientious Objector. The reason I am not on Active Duty right now is that I completed 20 years Active Service and transferred to the Fleet Reserve, aka Retired, and have not been recalled to Active Duty (which I am subject to being). The proper channels I used were completing 20 years Active Service and the end I achieved was Transfer to the Fleet Reserve.

I am not a “Former PN1.” My rate/rating/branch/status are: PN1/USN/Retired.

Being UA once does not indicate “he’s not a team player.” It indicates he made a serious mistake. Funk is now involved in the repercussions of that mistake. Now, had he made a habit of going UA, then that would certainly be a non-team player. Funk is also involved in the process of being recognized (or not recognized) by the Armed Forces as a Conscientious Objector. Being a CO also does not indicate he’s not a team player.

[bayonet1976]

*Originally posted by Monty *
Being UA once does not indicate “he’s not a team player.” It indicates he made a serious mistake. Funk is now involved in the repercussions of that mistake. Now, had he made a habit of going UA, then that would certainly be a non-team player. Funk is also involved in the process of being recognized (or not recognized) by the Armed Forces as a Conscientious Objector. Being a CO also does not indicate he’s not a team player. **

Monty, what makes me question this guy’s claim of being a CO, and of being gay, is that he chose to go UA, and then resurfaced claiming CO status. Without any proof, just my own intuition, it seems to me that for reasons other than the stated ones this guy decided he’d had enough of the military and left. Then someone, perhaps a lawyer but more likely a friend, advised him of the CO angle as a way out of both the Marines and his UA status. IMO this was really, really bad advice. Had he returned, turned himself in and gone through the process he would’ve probably gotten a couple of months in the brig and a BCD. Now, who knows.

To further explain my reasoning on this, it seems to me that CO status involves some serious thought and consideration. An evaluation of one’s motives, and a final decision that killing, or fighting is morally injustifiable, and incompatible with military service. Going UA is probably more of a spur of the moment action, without serious consideration of the consequences. IMO the two are incompatible. Of course, this is just my opinion.

[Monty]

Mace: My explanation also included your use of the phrase “Give me a break!” Please provide your definition of its use in that posting. Whilst you’re at it, key on my use of the word “and.”

[Monty]

Actually, bayonet, it’s your opinion derived at from speculation alone. A lawyer certainly wouldn’t have told him that requesting an ADSEP would get him out of a disciplinary proceeding. Well, a good lawyer wouldn’t.