My sister is engaged to her sweetheart - a nice guy named Charlie who is in the US Navy.
They had planned their wedding for the end of October.
Apparently, Navy guys need to submit a paper to their COs asking for permission to marry. Permission has been denied.
When he asked why, his CO said that it was because he didn’t make enough money, and that Charlie would need to be a petty officer before it could be approved.
When he asked why that was so, the CO said that it was because he didn’t make enough money to support her. Charlie said that he didn’t need to make enough money to support her, she has a job of her own. The CO then asked if she had any kids. Charlie said yes, a son, and the CO said that he definately didn’t make enough money for that, because he would need to be able to support them both.
My question is: What the heck is THIS?
What is going on? Why can they say who can and cannot get married?
I understand that Charlie could be punished if his superiors found out that he married without permission. This whole thing seems WAY over the line to me.
It is true that permission must be sought to get married. Most of the time, this is just a pro forma thing to give the command a heads-up that a sailor is about to undergo a change of dependency status. (This information comes from Airman Doors, USAF, who had to do the same thing.)
That said, I’m guessing that there might be a problem with sailors getting married and then living outside their means, which is not an uncommon problem. This is just the commander’s way of making sure that Charlie is capable of supporting a family. Since the commander thinks he’s not, well, permission denied.
However, the commander has superiors. If Charlie thinks he’s unfairly being denied permission to marry for a reason that does not concern the commander, it would not be unreasonable to go to the next-highest link in his chain of command. He might also try his Family Service Center for help.
I was told by a co-worker that the military has strict rules about living within your means. While I thought that this was only to keep soldiers and such responsible about their money and their life in general so that they could be responsible soldiers as well, I was told that in fact the main reason is that folks who are hurting for cash are a major security risk, as they are much more likely to be bribed into giving away military info.
While I was in the Navy (1989-1994) I never heard of anyone on my ship being denied permission to marry. I knew the Marines would prevent marriages for anyone below E-4, however, and that always seemed like a pretty good idea to me. In addition to the reasons stated above, in general anyone who’s not made that rank/rate is not yet over 20 - and the problems with young marriages with the stresses of regular deployments added makes for a rather high divorce rate in the Navy. (I remember after Desert Storm, local Army wives were complaining about how the deployment of their spouses had been hurting their marriages, and the divorce rate was going up higher than it had ever been in the Army. When they got around to showing it, it was still lower than the regular Navy divorce rate.) My advice to Charlie would be for him to buckle down, hit the books hard, and make E-4. Depending on his rate now that could be as soon as 3 months with a little work on his part.
Thanks for all of the good advice. I will tell him. It’s just so foreign to me that a 28 year old man can be told that he isn’t allowed to marry because his boss says so. Especially when the reason given was financial, and my sister’s job (which is enough to support her and her son) isn’t even factored in. It seems so archaic.
The rationale is that when he gets transferred, she moves with the family and loses her job and her income, leaving them living on like $7 a day, or whatever Seamen are paid these days.
Actually, a married E-3 (Seaman) with under 2 years in service makes $1407 a month base pay, $355 per month for Housing (untaxed) and $250 per month for food (also untaxed). That is like $24,144 before taxes (base pay is taxable)
The military has major problems overall in dealing with young enlisted people and their families. My husband did 26 years in the Navy and such family problems were major factors at every command he ever served at. In general, it’s a pretty bad idea for people under the rank of E-4 to marry and have a family. E-1 to E-3 are starter ranks and just don’t pay enough to support a family. Added to this is the fact that, in general, people below the rank of E-4 tend to be very young and their spouses will also tend to be young. The lack of money isn’t the only issue, there are also many forced separations and service-specific difficulties that come into play. It’s just a big, fat headache overall – my husband has stories that would curl your hair.
Of course, it’s the horror stories that cause the headaches. For every terrible case there are surely several instances of happily married E-1s through E-3s minding their own business and getting by just fine. And, of course, the horror stories are by no means limited to E-3 and below. But as a general guideline, marriage among the very lowest ranks is just more trouble than it’s worth – at least in the opinion of most higher-ups.
That said, your future brother-in-law does seem to be in a different position than most E-3s. He is older (and I assume your sister is too). Under the circumstances, I would recommend that he go to his ship’s Chaplain and ask for assistence in appealing the CO’s decision. A ship’s Chaplain is good for more than just spiritual help, BTW – they are trained in helping with personal problems of all varieties. I think Charlie will find that, once he explains the situation fully – addressing specifically his age, his future wife’s age, and their future combined income including any child support your sister receives for her son – the Chaplain will be happy to help him. And keeping the problem within the command is less likely to piss the CO off than bringing outsiders (the Navy Family Service Center or his Congressman) into it. Good luck and let us know what happens.
There’s also the issue that financial responsibility is paramount in the military. If you fail to pay your bills your CO and immediate supervisor is informed, and based upon the severity you can be stripped of rank or even court martialed. The reason they do this is because if you’re worried about money or family you won’t be focused on your job, and that could lead to people dying.
Your friend’s CO is actually doing him a favor. He’ll be better prepared to assume the responsibilities of paying his bills with more rank.
My advice: Involve the Command Master Chief. He is the senior enlisted person of the command, and is the direct representative to the CO of all matters dealing with enlisted personnel and their morale and well being.
The Command Master Chief was once a young enlisted sailor, so you can bet he knows what it was like.
Bring him pay records from the wife’s job. If she lives in the area, show evidence she’ll continue to work in her present position after the wedding. If she’s moving, bring a resume.
If you can get the CMC on your side, the CO may well follow.
If not, it is within a sailor’s right to go up the chain of command, but the CO must be notified of that fact.
When I was In the NAVY, I’d heard of this permission thing, but never saw it in writing. I got married, changed my paperwork to show the new dependent and that was that. Don’t recall the state or county licensing people requesting to see my permission slip either. Maybe things have changed, but the old sea stories seem to never change.
Wait a minute, wait a minute, time out! A military officer cannot deny you your civil rights. The CO of a base cannot refuse you permission to get married, nor is it required to ask his/her permission (unless the intended spouse is an officer and the other is enlisted). All he can to is to offer advice. While getting married at a junior grade may not be advisable, it’s not illegal, nor is it against the UCMJ. It’s a civil matter and no different than going out and getting a driver’s license.
I got married while in the Navy and thought I had to ask permission. The CO basically laughed at my request and told me it was my business what I do with my life.
If this guy’s CO is telling him that he can’t get married, it’s time to hire a lawyer or go see the JAG.
If your sister’s intended is stationed somewhere like Norfolk, VA or San Diego, CA, they can basically stay where they are for the duration of his career. Many people choose orders so they can stay where they are – they’ve got kids in school, their spouse doesn’t want to leave their job, they’ve bought a house, or whatever. Since the Navy generally requires water ;), their choices are more limited than the Army, Air Force, or Marine Corps. (Yes, I am aware that there are land-locked Navy bases.)
Charlie is on a ship that is currently docked in VA, but will be leaving soon. He is from VT, which is where his family, my sister, and my family lives. He will be moving back to VT when he gets out of the Navy. He has three years of service left, if I remember right.
Chefguy, I’m relieved to hear you say that it’s not ilegal.
*If you are in the States (not assigned overseas), getting married as a member of the military is much the same as civilian marriages. You don’t need advanced permission and there is no special military paperwork to fill out before the marriage. You simply get married according the laws of the state where the marriage is taking place after obtaining a marriage license off-base.
If you are overseas and marrying a foreign national, it’s a different story. There are tons of forms to complete; you must obtain counseling and your commander’s permission (which is rarely withheld without very good reason); your spouse must undergo a security background check and pass a medical examination. Finally, the marriage has to be “recognized” by the United States Embassy. The entire process can take several months.*
So I would guess that it’s bunk, but I stand ready to be corrected.