I second MissBHaven. Great thread. I wish my sister and her first husband had seen it.
How the heck does that work? How can one get to know someone that quickly? Or was it an arranged marriage?
I think it’s important that your prospective spouse never treat you with sarcasm or disdain. This may seem like a no-brainer, but it’s remarkable how often this happens when couples are angry, or when one of them is trying to be “funny” in public. To me, it’s a huge, huge red flag that the person doesn’t respect you or your feelings anywhere near as much as they should. I also read somewhere that among marriage experts, the absence of that sort of disdain is one of the major predictors of whether a marriage has a chance.
I don’t know, Cranky. I think sarcasm and disdain are totally seperate issues. Sarcasm can be a symptom of disdain, or it can be a form of good-natured ribbing, depending on the motives and the relationship. For instance, I can yell, “Bitch, you want a piece of me?” at my cousin, and she can scream back “Bring it on, Chubby!” or we might have some snotty little exchange that ends in us making horrible faces at each other. People around us might be horrified, but we both know that there’s no offense meant and none taken on either side. We love and respect one another, but we’re snarky little people. As long as it’s meant and taken in a harmless spirit, I don’t have a problem with sarcasm at all.
When one party is getting hurt, though, and the other won’t stop, or the comments were meant to hurt, THAT’S a sign of disrespect for someone’s feelings.
<reading repsonses and making mental checklist>
Ditto that. Anyone who thinks “I don’t mind the flaws, I can change him/her after we’re married” is setting up for a lot of disappointment.
My stock marriage advice is this: being married means the two folks involved cease to exist as independent beings – they are now merging to form a Borg-like Hivemind™, sharing the same thoughts and desires and motives, albeit in different bodies. It is therefore bad form for hubby to stay out all night without telling the missus, because that’s violating the Hivemind™ behavior. Similarly, if hubby really needs to go to the Star Trek convention this weekend, the wife should be supportive of it, just because that’s what the Hivemind™ wants to do.
This level of support – the whole “If it’s important to you, it’s important to me” mindset – is IMO the key to a long and prosperous marriage.
Smart–Is she/he sharp enough not to fall for some fast talking scammer when you’re not home?
A slack leash–Is he/she confident enough to let you pick your own path without badgering? For that matter, are you?
Accommodating–Can she/he tolerate an opposite opinion without screaming?
Wow. I am not married, and the current beau, though fun, may only be current. But I am learning a fair bit at the feet of the masters here.
When single and lonely about it, I tell myself that there is a guy out there who has what it takes to loves me the way I desrve to be loved, but that I won’t meet or recognise him until I have what it takes to love him the same way. I can’t control his end of the equation, just mine.
But I have to agree with CrazyCatLady’s list of deal-breakers, with one addition: I enjoy my own company. Therefore, I know that any applicants for husband must a) respect my need for solitary down-time, and b) be comfortable doing the same.
And thank you to all who boldly go before me, and report back the lessons learned.
An unusual set of qualifications here. Married to first wife 24 years before she died. This was a “really-married” in the John D. MacDonald’s classification scheme of married and really married.
Two years after her death, married again, someone I had originally met as a 16-year-old and saw occasionally in the 30+ years since. We did indeed fall in love, surprising us both, as there had been no hint of that sort of thing for each other when we’d met earlier.
In September, we celebrated our 5th anniversary.
Some observations: It was much easier at first with my first wife. We were both still fairly young (early 20s) and still forming some off our opinions and philosophies, so evolved them together. Shared experiences, including raising two wonderful children, had worn smooth all the rough places. We fit very well together.
Yet we weren’t in lockstep. She had her own interests (textile arts, including spinning, dyeing, weaving, and lacemaking; gardening; calligraphy, etc.) and her own job at various times. And she was highly intellingent. Which gave us things to talk about. The kids used to comment on it — “I’ll bet nobody else’s parents talk about stuff like this at the dinner table.”
I miss her like crazy, though she’s been gone seven years now.
Remarrying was a LOT harder. At first, we had to constantly watch ourselves for the the automatic assumptions. That is, we had to not assume that the other person felt this way about that topic. This can trip you up when you do something you’re expecting praise for and get criticism instead. It forced me in many cases to examine my own habits and assumptions about how things should be - whether it be about money or sex or children, the three basic areas of disagreement, or about such things as entertaining style. I hadn’t done much, but my tendency when I did was to have a groaning smorgasboard of choices for people in both food and drink, because that’s what I appreciated when I was a guest somewhere. Her philosophy was that guests came to see what you had chosen for them and were putting themselves in your hands for you to choose a selected experience for them - a simple menu (no choices) that was selected by the hostess to go together in a (hopefully) pleasing esthetic way.
It took, in some cases, intense negotiations to find a common ground. (On some political issues, that remains in the “agree to disagree” catgegory).
After five years, though, we’ve worked out most of that stuff, and we know enought to run it by the other party if we’re unsure about a reaction.
Others have mid-life crises; I think out of the sad loss of my late wife, I have been able to have a mid-life revitalization.
Hope that helps.
—Hometownboy
I think one thing that seems to be out for me after a couple of failed marriages and now one really married marriage. The joy of each other’s company. We’ve known each other for many years and after all the years of being friends, dating and marriage, the one thing we seem to never run out of is conversation. We can talk for hours about a lot of things.
I enjoy talking to her and knowing that if we have to go to some event that we don’t really know anyone, we can always go off and just chat.
Seems so simple, but is something I’ve seen as important.
Some simple things not yet mentioned.
Does he pitch in? Once dated a guy who didn’t help me shovel my driveway - why should he - he was only an overnight guest. I am NOT married to him. It would get old married to someone who didn’t bother to mow the grass.
Are you comfortable with his/her friends - even the ones of the opposite sex? If you don’t like his friends - you probably don’t really like him - he has a lot in common with them. (Some marriages work despite this, most don’t)
Are you comfortable with his family? Like friends, some marriages work even when you can’t stand his family. But, if he likes them, you are better off enjoying them as well.
I do have to talk a little about Life’s compromise. I was married previously to a serial cheater. Believing marriage was forever, I “compromised” myself into an open marriage. Eventually, one of the girlfriends (one I didn’t even know about - cheating was in his blood even when the terms were in his favor) decided she wanted him to be married to her. Compromise is well and good, but don’t compromise yourself right out of yourself. Divorce may not be great, but its better than losing who you are.
Whoa, I get sarcasm. And it can certainly be funny when both parties know it’s being used humorously. I’m talking about times when it is used to belittle the other person. I certainly get the difference; I’m sorry if I made anyone thing that I thought sarcasm was vorboten in a relationship.
Mr. Cranky and I were at a movie theatre this weekend and I ordered a medium popcorn. The guy behind the counter suggested I get a large, “which was double the size!” for just $.75 more. I asked if I could see how big a large was. He held up the bag, and I said it was too much. Then I asked to see the medium. Mr Cranky said “Imagine one HALF the size of the one you just saw, genius.”
The counter guy sort of smiled and said “Unfortunately, I am not allowed to give responses like that.”
Mr Cranky: “Yeah, and you’re not allowed to slap her either.” At which point we both burst out laughing.
First and last, you have to be best friends.
Happily married since '91.
Hometownboy - I just want to say that was a LOVELY post. It sounds to me that you’ve been lucky in having two very different but very loving wives. And based on what you had to say about your first wife, I’d have to say they’re pretty lucky ladies as well.
**Airing Laundry **
Dead inlaws are always a plus.
I mean that seriously.
If you think you will be able to handle your spouses parents, but something ain’t quite right with them, guess what, it will never get better over the years.
I’m not talking about the usual deal breakers of alcoholics,abuse, arrests, drugs, gambling, perverted stuff, these are the big red flag. It’s the little indefinable things that become boomingly loud over the years in a blaring way, but only to you, the outsider and any other inlaw by marriage with a lick of sense.
If your spouse is still daddy’s girl or still attached by the umbilical cord, and their family is slightly to moderately nutty ( not nearly as nutty as yours…remember, kiddies…every family is dysfunctional.) and your spouse does not see anything wrong with why their family is in a continous co-dependant swirlie, you are in for a long bumpy ride. If spouse sticks up for families stupidity time and time again it means two things: parents and their problems are more important that you, the spouse they chose and two, they are a part of the problem. Some people get off on being the Rescuer all the time. It won’t ever get better.
However, if spouse aids family but knows they are nutty, then it means they are on your side but the family, like the mafia, has him by the short hairs via guilt and possibly your spouse is the only one who can do what needs to be done a) the way they like it and b) quickly, c) cheaply. (this would be my husband)
Furthermore, what this really means is that your spouse married you because you are strong and do not allow this kind of shit to happen to you because you are steadfast, reliable and not prone to use big fat cow eyes and a boo-boo lip to get your way or overcome by hysteria. So, at least you got that going for you. Sorry, it isn’t much, but it’s the best I could do as a compenstatory prize.
You have to make a decision that is this person worth it for the long haul of life to make a commitment too because of such and such good qualities that you admire about them. If you say yes, you will need to learn a mantra, pick one, and repeat it inside your head when the insanity seems endless: * They are not my parents. It’s not my business. They don’t listen to me anyways. let the siblings fight it out. *
The rest of the advice here is spot on.
You cannot name a “most important” factor. In fact, that’s the whole point. I believe it was Tolstoy who said that all happy marriages are alike, but every unhappy marriage is unhappy in its own way - his point being, of course, that any one of a thousand things can blow a marriage up real good.
I can think of TEN absolute deal-breakers. You need these or need to be able to work them out:
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Companionship. Your spouse must be your best friend. If you get tired of spending time with your prospective spouse, that’s a real red flag. If you would much rather spend most nights out with the boys/girls, danger!!! You have to LIKE this person, like them more than anyone else you’ve ever known, not just love them. I believe you can love someone within days of meeting them… it takes longer to establish how much you LIKE them.
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Sexual attraction. If your prospective spouse doesn’t do it for ya in the sack, that’s a problem.
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Loyalty. This isn’t just not cheating on you (duh!!!) but prioritization. Will your prospective spouse side against you and on the side of her family? Bad, bad sign; once married you MUST be an absolutely unbreakable team from the perspective of any observer. From the outside you should look like the '79 Pirates - We Are Fam-I-Lee, n’ere to be divided. (This does not mean you become one of those idiot parents who insists their child can never do wrong when the teacher calls you up and says they beat another child with a bat.)
Your inlaws may be good or bad. Either way it doesn’t matter as long as your spouse is loyal to YOU above anyone else. Blood is not as thick as a gold ring. A spouse who sides with their family over you is a divorce waiting to happen and it makes no difference what the inlaws are like. A spouse who always sides with you will bring you joy even if their parents are Charles and Marilyn Manson. This does not mean you don’t gently tell your spouse when they’re being unreasonable, but you do it behind closed doors.
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Agreement about money. Nothing busts up a marriage faster. can have little disagreements but in general you should be able to agree on the major decisions. Mrs. RickJay and I are 95% in agreement on monetary issues… and it’s still absolutely the #1 point of friction in our marriage.
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Agreement about family plans, or at least a reasonable facsimile thereof. “Two kids” vs. “Three kids” can be worked out. “Five kids” vs. “Never kids ever” is a problem.
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A civil relationship. Never, never, never insult your spouse. Ever. Addressing problems and saying you’re angry is fine. The moment you call her/him a name or say they’re “stupid,” you just screwed up real bad. If your prospective spouse does this, avoid them. Creation of resentment will poison your marriage.
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Grace under pressure. Marriage is really difficult because LIFE is really difficult. How will your spouse react if you lose your job? If your teenaged daughter gets pregnant? If your mortgage application goes belly up? If your mother gets sick and you have to spend a month caring for her? If you wreck the car? You want someone who can handle a crisis without going to peices 'cause there WILL be crises. Oh, yes, indeedy. Lots of them.
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Honesty. This goes without saying, but I think people can fool themselves into thinking someone is honest when they are not. If your prospective spouse hides things from you that’s going to be a really big problem.
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Maturity. Some people are not ready for marriage.
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Commitment to the MARRIAGE. People often like the idea of getting married, but are they willing to work at it? Love’s a verb, not just a noun. If you have problems will they avoid them or tackle them? Will they bolt or stick it out?
One thing I would stress is that stuff like leaving the toilet seat up or political quibbles and stuff… if that crap causes tension in your marriage you’re screwing up on one of the Big Ten above. Mrs. RickJay and I never fight about that stuff, ever. It’s simply not important because it’s trumped by our dedication to our marriage, our liking each other, our mutual respect. Nitty-picky issues aren’t important enough to overcome those critical things.
That is most gracious of you to say. i didn’t mean to paint too rosy a picture - like all marriages, there have been ups and downs in both. But I have been incredibly lucky to have found good people and been able to connect with them at a deep level. Any success I have had I credit to the excellent example of my parents, who had 46 years together before dad died.
Despite some of the happy stories you hear of people meeting and getting married immediately, I think that is a really bad way to go about things. There’s no rush, no matter how much your relatives try to convince you otherwise. Take time to get to know each other, live together for a while and see if you don’t drive each other nuts. available light and I were together for 5 years, and lived together for 4 years, before we got married. Breaking off a bad relationship is relatively easy, if not painless. Getting divorced is a huge mess.
I agree with most of the deal-makers and deal-breakers presented here, and have another to add: I have recently found out that it’s hard to love someone who doesn’t love themselves, who is always supercritical of their intelligence and looks, and lacks even a modicum of self-confidence. It may not present itself right away (as I learned), so I heartily agree on living with each other for a while as a “test drive.”
If you could never have sex again, would you still be friends?
Romantic attraction is a wonderful thing, but it ebbs and flows over the years. Common interests and mutual commitment do not. Make it a priority to cultivate the common interests, and be sure the other person is also clear that marriage is for life.
And for heaven’s sake, make an effort to retain your spouse’s affections after you are married. One big advantage of living together for years is that you learn the other person’s hot buttons - what they like or don’t like. Both of you should be working to make the other person happy.
Regards,
Shodan