… so are the 3 versions of ITF
Sigh. Another incorrect statement.
I went to Korea in 1994 for instructor certification. It was a huge thing. We were all over Korean television every day we were there. After we completed the training camp, we went up and trained for a day and a half with the ROK Tiger Division.
I still have one of the huge banners that was hung on the streets of Seoul as a souvenir. H. U. Lee, our founder, couldn’t walk down the street; he’d get mobbed like a rock star. I didn’t really realize it until then, but he was one of the premier martial artists in the world. An analogy might be this: you might not play baseball, but everyone knows who Babe Ruth or Nolan Ryan is. Same way with him in Korea. Yes, our ranks are recognized in Korea.
Grasshopper, you really need to stop. You are making a total fool of yourself and it’s getting embarrassing to watch you crash and burn like this.
Point sparring vs Full contact sparring are two completely different skill sets and styles. Putting one above the other is pointless and idiotic.
That’s like comparing Rugby to American Football – it’s virtually the same game, in American Football they wear body armour, in Rugby they don’t. American Football stops every couple of seconds, Rugby is continuous.
An American Football player will get slaughtered in Rugby and a Rugby player will get slaughtered in American Football.
Yet at first glance it looks like they play the same game.
Same is valid for Full contact vs Point sparing in Taekwon-Do – a different set of rules applies.
Yup, the magic of Hollywood, sure we know who Babe Ruth is….. don’t just ask what team, year or his score card and stuff….. but the name we foreigners know for sure….. I didn’t even have to look here.
This is a problem I have with my co-worker. When he feels strongly about something, he is completely unable to allow anyone else to have a different opinion about it. It is a HUGE character flaw.
Everyone else gets their own opinion. Even if you don’t agree with it. Even if it may be wrong. Trying to force your opinion on others is the ‘wrong’ part. It is a form of assault. There comes a time when you need to ‘agree to disagree’ and let it go.
Did you learn to throw a punch without hurting yourself?
Did you do it enough to get comfortable with the forms and types of punches?
Do you think you could strike a target with any force?
Did you learn the same things and gain the same experience with kicks and any other forms of strikes?
Did you learn to block strikes?
Did you do it enough to get some basic experience and familiarity with it?
Did you learn to get hit without flinching or retreating and continue your practice?
If you answered yes to all of these, then you learned pretty much all of the basics of self-defense. In the process, you gained self-confidence and self-discipline.
If any school taught you these things, then it was not ‘worthless’.
The single best thing you can do for yourself in life is to accept the possibility that you may be wrong, and be willing to learn from it.
Would you support a licensing requirement to get a firearm? You would have to pass basic compentency and safety tests (as well as a background check) and then renew your license every few years. In exchange you can transport your firearm anywhere in the USA and you can keep one in your home anywhere in the USA. Maybe even have a national CCW.
Its nothing compared to martial arts and its shelf life is a lot longer.
I think that most people can achieve their first degree black belt with training and dedication. But just like most people stop going to the gym in March, most people don’t get much past blue belt.
With that said, I agree that its hard to imagine a real black belt younger than 12 (YMMV).
Its hard to take a black belt seriously if they haven’t engaged in full contact sparring. Its like flag football, there are some critical skills and instincts you don’t develop without the full contact.
Because the Dope won’t indulge you just because you are bright for your age. It would be like giving a 7 year old a black belt just because they are really good for a 7 year old. There are objective measures that are applied and you are not graded on a sliding scale that takes your age into account.
My impression (and I could be wrong) is that they are a bit commercialized, standardized, made for mass consumption version of Tae Kwon Do, but you can become very good at Tae Kwon Do at any school, its really up to you.
They could be awesome and they still wouldn’t get the same sort of recognition as the WTF because the WTF is the one that counts for the Olympics. Its domiinant in Korea because it had government sponsorship and close association with the Korean military for decades.
ATA is what ATA is. Generally speaking its a bit of a franchise operation isn’t it?
I respectfully disagree. The typical 6 year old should not reasonably expect to become a black belt when they are 9. A 9 year old black belt should be the exception, not the rule. Frankly I don’t think you should have that many 12 year old black belts running around. YMMV.
Whether you spar contact or non-contact, you’re gonna get whacked. It happens. This is a martial art practiced by humans, after all, and someone’s going to miss a block or mis-time something or whatever.
There is that, but the fact remains that the Songahm style (what ATA teaches) is recognized in Korea. If anyone in the ATA wants to compete in the Olympics, they’ll go cross-train in a WTF school and compete that way.
No. Each school is individually owned and operated. ATA provides certification, instructional material, operational assistance, etc., but the chief instructor of the school dictates the school’s business policy, schedule, etc.
We will agree to disagree on this. Nine is the low end for me, but I have seen many nine year old Black Belts whose quality of technique and sparring skills was head and shoulders above that of adults of the same rank.
The WTF just awarded a black belt to a six year old. Her 10 year old brother is a second degree black belt. Approval came straight from the Korean HQ, who also informed her instructor that she is officially the youngest black belt in the world.
It’s ok, though… It took her over three years to get her belt, she totally participates in full-contact sparring, and because she’s part of a military family you know she’s not paying more than $100/month for her lessons.
That sound you hear is AU’s head exploding.
Oh, he’ll just complain that she probably couldn’t take out the average mugger, or something like that.
I dunno, she looks awfully mean in the photos. I think she could hold her own. 
I will say this for AU’s threads. The OP may be daft but the ensuing discourse usually doesn’t disappoint.
Well, when the ignorance is laid right out there for you to fight, I believe the term is “target rich environment”.
Question.
Is a place that teaches tournament style Tae Kwon Do a McDojo by definition?
I took tournament style TKD in college, under Grandmaster Ahn at UC. Going by the training I had, it doesn’t seem like a McDojo. Yes, we trained mainly for tournaments, but there was a lot of full contact sparing (including a session where we had to go against 2 black belts). We were taught to hit, not to tap. We did forms, but not exclusively, and we were shown what the forms were supposed to represent (our teachers would sometimes take the side of the opponent while were doing forms to show us what the forms were meant to do). Training was done on a stone or wooden floor, I still have callouses on the first two knuckles of my hands from doing pushups. When we all got blisters on our feet from having to switch to wood from stone, they still expected us to get up and spar. There was no half assing it.
But when I go look at the school it looks like a McDojo. Of course, it looks a bit different than when I was there. I don’t remember having to pay extra for belt tests.
The big thing that sticks out to me is that it was stressed that this was a tournament style. We weren’t learning sweeps or throws because they weren’t allowed at tournaments. They did warn us that some of this could get you hurt in a real fight, unless you were really good with it (the examples they used were the 2 guys who were training under Grandmaster Ahn for the olympics).
Also, I’m not stupid. I realize that what I learned was a bit less martial arts and a bit more sports than a normal style. I know not to use high kicks in a real fight. At no point did I ever think ‘I know martial arts, I’m a badass’.
So did I attend a McDojo?
Well, apparently so. I mean, if they didn’t teach you to reach down someone’s throat, rip their heart out and eat it while it’s still beating, then obviously what you learned is useless in the “street”. 
A rule of thumb that I have developed: if someone refers to a school as a McDojo and they have not trained in that school, you can safely disregard that person’s comments, as they are made from ignorance.
The proper, old-school way to settle this is for the Dojo Black Belts to take on the McDojo Black Belts…
For some posters you can skip some of the middle steps.
At the all-valley tournament.
I studied for a while, at two different times in my life, with Fumio Demura. Leaving out the long boring details (you can google him if you don’t know him … opinions vary. I know he’s the real deal and a bad-ass guy, though friendly and very funny), I’ll say just one thing about semi-crappy dojos. You have to ask yourself … are these students (they’re mostly kids and soccer-moms, right? A few yuppy types and a smattering of nerds) really trying to learn to fight? I honestly remember (going back to the 70s here) that the women just wanted to avoid rape and escape/run away, and the out-of-shape types wanted some exercise with a dash of panache. The kids had too much fun, but at least back then, there were very few wanna-be killer-commandos.
If the instructor doesn’t tell the students to do anything inordinately dangerous or weird, I would think the worst case scenario is a class of amateurs getting a good work-out. With the internet these days, anyone serious about real martial arts can do the research and progress to qualified teachers on their own. Talented pupils will seek out worthy Senseis … the rest can just exercise five-nights-a-week and try to stay out of trouble. Even if you’re a legit black belt, it’s a good idea to avoid any risk of street-fighting or armed confrontation, for health and legal reasons.
The cream will rise to the top, and it always has in my experience. The one-in-a-thousand future MMA fighters won’t take too long to figure out they need to train with a better master, and the rest … I just don’t think it matters all that much in the end.
I don’t have a lot of time, my day here at work is almost done.
I don’t consider myself a Martial Artist. I studied Kuk Sool for about 5 years, and am working in year number 3 of WTF TKD (having had to start over at the new school, as it turns out my original WTF TKD instructor wasn’t actually a member in good standing. long story.) I got to Brown belt in Kuk Sool, and have missed the last 2 tests for my Orange in TKD due to scheduling issues.
Plus a smattering of stuff that I could catch when I could, as I could. Several years of SCA combat training, a few weeks at a Bujinkan school, etc. etc. etc. If there was Kuk Sool anywhere near me I would drop the TKD and sign right now, but alas… it is not to be.
I have, however, researched the heck out of martial arts. For a very long time.
Anonymous User, I understand you. I used to be like you. You are smart, you are used to being the smart guy in the room. You can learn things fast, and you can research well. However, when researching on the internet, you HAVE to learn to winnow the few good bits from the sea of chaff that is out there.
For example, the Bullshido website. I’ve been there. They HATE Kuk Sool, but then again, if you get down into it, they hate anything that isn’t hard core MMA. Some respect for Thai Boxing and some of the more brutal South Asian stuff, but in general they mock your art, my art, everyones are. Clothahump is 100% correct, it started good but it is not what it once was.
Slow down. WTF TKD is good, and if you do nothing but study it, hard, for the rest of your life you will be a better person for it. But it’s most certainly not the be-all end-all of Martial Arts. It’s not even the cream of the crop.
Learn some Korean history, as best you can, and go looking at those other Korean arts… Hapkido, Tang Soo Do, Tae Kyon, and a small host of others. Look at the Japanese stuff, and compare it to the Chinese arts. Learn the subtle differences. A true artist can usually tell the difference between a Choi Li Fut kick, a WTF kick, and a Savate Kick. It is a deep deep world, Martial Arts, and there is much to love, much to learn, and much to study.
Don’t discount someone because they disagree with you. Hear them, listen to them, then ask questions. The wise man doesn’t speak in absolutes.
And for Og’s sake, learn some humility! Tell you’re instructor that you are arguing with a very patient ATA 6th degree who has been running a school for 15 years. I don’ t think you’ll get the pat on the head you are expecting.
A true martial artist should be humble, open to new things, adaptable, and willing to listen to everyone.
My old instructor used to say that every day he would do 100 kicks, and he expected to do that for as long as he could, and would never ever consider himself to have mastered any move. He regularly got together with TKD guys, Kung Fu guys, and anyone else who he thought might be fun to hang out with.
tl;dr version:
Ask your instructor what he thinks of Bullshido. Ask your instructor what he would think of you arguing with a long time martial artist from your lofty position of 6 month student. Listen to him (or her!) and learn that you are not always going to be the smartest one in the room. Learning that last bit will change your life for the better. Take it form someone who had to learn it the hard way.
True dat! Our second Grandmaster used to always tell us, “There’s always something new to learn”. Then he would run our butts into the ground teaching us something new.
I have always agreed with the concept that every day, you should learn something new, or take something you already know and learn it better. If you don’t do that, you have wasted that day and you will never get it back.