Second, you really haven’t done your research. It’s in the Kukkiwon rules (Article 8) that you can’t give out a full-fledged first dan black belt to persons under the age of 15. You need to issue what is called a “poom belt” if the person is under the age of 15.
Like I said, if you are not convinced, let research verify me.
And a lot of the questions you are asking have been discussed in the thread already. I know it was a long OP, but if you didn’t bother to read the thread, then why did you post?
I live in a very expensive state. On top of that, this the only Do Jang I can go to that is not really a McDojang and isn’t over an hour away. This is the best Do Jang I can go to. It follows all the regulations (doesn’t give dan ranks to persons under 15, spars, and their average time to receive a black belt is around 5-7 years). There’s another one, but that’s a serious McDojo that’s giving out second degree black belts to nine year-olds. Pathetic!
You guys seem to be arguing, how should I know the cost? Well, I believe you guys are familiar with what is reasonable and what isn’t. There are some limits. If you’re exceeding $100/month, that’s a little fishy. This doesn’t automatically make the Do Jang a McDojo, but it is something to take note of. That’s all. Now if belt tests are excessive (like over $40/belt), then we also have a problem. However, price isn’t too much of a deal-breaker - what’s more significant to take note of is if they’re promoting very rapidly, making up belts, there are kids running around in black belts, contracts, lack of sparring, etc. Those are the real signs. Cost is just a minor problem.
April R, you should visit this source. It verifies a lot of what I’m saying.
And you would get your ass kicked even worse than if you had joined a McDojang. Most styles of aikido are worthless for self-defense.
As a point of information about the worthiness or otherwise of taekwondo for actual fighting - one of the competitors in the sparring event in the Olympics got pissed off over some call and kicked the referee in the head, as they are trained to do in TKD. A full-force kick, from a sparring competitor at the highest level possible, against a completely unprepared, old man. Didn’t even knock him down.
Regards,
Shodan (who has been a shodan for the last thirty-eight years, partly because of rank inflation and how it cheapens the art)
April R, I ran out of edit time, but I wanted to give you way to a link that will tell you if you’re in a McDojo or note right here: Warnings signs and red flags of McDojos
I don’t understand the need or the difference between all these styles. It seems to me that you just need basic skills and you’ll be fine. Basic skills would include: punching, kicking, blocking, movement/rhythm, and grappling.
I imagine that the styles emphasize different aspects and teach you proper technique. But there is no substitute for practice. Plus, I’ve always found that you can teach somebody a specific move, but every person will tweak it their own unique way. Because you really learn through practice and repetition. So, just get a punching bag.
So your reasons are:
1 - They’re ripping people off
2 - They’re not adhering to normal timetables
3 - People are not learning the proper techniques and could get hurt.
The (easy and obvious) rebuttals would be:
1 - Every industry has some incarnation where somebody is being ripped off.
2 - Some/most people are just signing their kids up as a lark and are perfectly OK with their kid not getting the Mr. Miyagi experience.
3 - This is a spurious argument. For one, they shouldn’t be getting into fights. As a second, even in self defense, no 15 year old kid is going to be able to employ the mystic secrets of martial arts to fend off a mugger because the mugger will probably be armed. Hell, I’d suspect that very few fully fledged black belts would be able to diffuse a mugging safely. You’d need to be a flat out Krav Maga instructor which…
::deep breath::
This is a spurious argument.
hijack: One of my friends is a huge jerk and an awful roommate. One semester in college, he got paired up with random roommates from student housing. He did his jerky things like come home drunk and eat food out of the fridge. One night, one of his random roommates had enough and decided to employ some of his judo moves. Unfortunately for the roommate, my friend is a hulking beast of a guy who was an all-state linebacker in SC and basically tossed the kid off like a rag doll and kept on foraging like a bear prepping for winter.
Anyway, it all boils down to a whopping pot of “who cares”. Save the pits for when somebody actually offends you personally. Not general sweeping inklings (is that an oxymoron?).
There’s a lot of difference between styles (they tend to be grouped into major stylistic families, though), which can absolutely affect actual combat performance. Styles develop different kinds of movement which ideally work together to produce harmonious, but effective, combat engine. Some almost totally eschew striking in favor of grappling, while others focus heavily on kicks rather than punches. Then you’ll have some which move in too close for kicking and punch the crap out of your face before you can even try for a grapple, and others which have completely insane movement like Capoeira.
And there are subtle and baltant differences in how they go about each - striking in Karate forms is not the same as striking techniques Southern Shaolin.
No good enough. Learning proper techniques takes a lot of oversight from somebody to make sure you’re not going to hurt yourself, much less ot use the right form. Which isn’t to say that bagwork isn’t useful - it’s an old but very common technique because it does the job. But it’s no substitute even in part for supervision under a good tutor or actual combat practice.
[coughs]
My apologies to all, it would seem that I have been misled. Fortunately, we’re not in GQ.
However, my basic point stands: TKD exists as a martial art that can be learned quickly. Some people teach it better than others. Some people charge more than others. Some people advance their students through the ranks faster than others. This does not ruin TKD, and it really doesn’t ruin any other martial art on the planet.
AU, I’m going to respond to your post in sections. There is a lot that I take exception to and some that I agree with.
My background: I was promoted to 6th Degree Black Belt in Taekwondo last October. It was my 7th attempt to achieve the rank. I have now been nominated for Mastership, am undergoing advanced training and plan to receive the title in July. I’ve spent 28 years of my life learning and teaching Taekwondo.
Okay, let’s start with your flat statement that it shouldn’t exceed 100 clams a month. That might work for someone teaching out of his garage. For someone like me, who runs a professional school located in a good shopping center and who is working towards doing this full time and quitting my day job, $100 is barely enough. In many locations, it would not be enough at all, and in most locations in Houston, it wouldn’t be enough; I managed to negotiate a really good lease.
Monthly fees are going to be based on the operational “nut” of the school combined with the demographics of the marketing area. My nut (the fixed costs of the school; what it takes to keep the doors open) runs just over $4k per month. That would mean I would need a paying student base of 40 people just to keep the doors open; if I want to pay myself a salary, pay down debt, set aside money for slow periods, etc., I’ll need more. My spreadsheet for calculating all this is fairly complex.
A blanket statement like you made indicates that you really don’t understand the business aspect of running a martial arts school.
I read your website that you based your rant on. It appears to have been written by someone who knows very little about martial arts in general.
There is no “average” time to reach 1st Degree Black Belt. It will take as long as it takes. Each student is unique and will train and learn differently. Each student will struggle with different aspects of the training. IMNSHO, the bare bones minimum should be two years, and that is really pushing it. Anyone can learn to punch and kick. It’s the mental aspects of the training that take the longest to learn. This is why I disagree with “accelerated” programs, where the student might train for longer hours and learn 2 ranks worth of material per testing cycle or something like that. I liken it to baking a cake. If the recipe calls for an hour in the oven at 200 degrees, turning it up to 400 and only putting the cake in for a half hour will result in something that might be done on the outside, but is half-baked on the inside.
That statement is incorrect, as mentioned above.
A mostly incorrect statement. There is no problem with kids earning Black Belts. I will agree that there probably could be a minimum age, but IMO, it should be 10. That is based on the learning capabilities of kids and the fact that they don’t really start operating in a rational learning mode until around age 6.
And there is no “junior” Black Belt in most styles. That is pretty unique to the WTF and the Kukkiwon.
50 clams for a belt test is reasonable. Our school charges $65. The difference, I guess, is that our rates are fully disclosed at the time the student registers with the school. You seem to want people to believe that fees for belt testings are sprung suddenly and without warning on the students. The rate for a belt test is unreasonable only when the majority of the students are unable or unwilling to pay it. If they are told up front what the cost is, they can budget accordingly.
Yes, there are bad instructors. In any large group of people, you will have some who fall under the left end of the bell curve. You seem to think those people represent the entire martial arts teaching profession and have just painted us all with a really wide brush.
Another incorrect statement. Are you aware that it takes more discipline and control to point spar than to just haul off and blast your opponent? I didn’t think so.
And the reality of the situation is simple: whether you’re point sparring or contact sparring, you’re gonna get thumped. People misjudge their distance, or the opponent charges just as you do, or whatever. Getting the occasional bruise or black eye is a good thing. As the old saying goes: pain is a wonderful instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes.
I’ll sum up by saying this. You and the guy you quoted both sound like you have been hanging out in that troll-hole called bullshido. I’ve read stuff over there that sounds like a bunch of people who washed out of some style because they couldn’t cut it, and now they spend their time trashing and bad-mouthing it.
Yes, there are schools with bad business practices. No argument from me there; I have to put up with them in my own organization. Bad business practices do not mean that the quality of instruction is sub-standard, however. As mentioned earlier, yes, there are bad instructors, and when bad instruction is combined with bad business practices, one winds up with a real armpit school that gives the rest of the profession a bad name. Sadly, they do exist and sadly, they do cause damage to the rest of us who are quietly teaching quality martial arts as best we can.
Keep in mind that a good. traditional martial arts school will teach life skills and will use the martial art as the teaching medium. And remember that setting and achieving a goal to achieve First Degree Black Belt is like setting and achieving a goal to graduate from high school. You’ve spent the time from White Belt to First Degree learning the basics. At First Degree is where you really start to learn the art of Taekwondo (or whatever style you train in). You never stop learning and you never quit. Perseverance is the key to success.
Yup, there’s always some excuse. “We didn’t learn super secret death strikes in my first month and so I think the whole thing is crap.” “I spent six months learning how to punch and I’m angry because my instructor wasn’t happy with my progress. It’s all his fault!”* “Why should I pay more than $20 a month? This is a ripoff!”** “I was hoping they’d teach me how to kill Navy Seals in six months and I don’t feel like I could fight the guy at the bowling alley!”
and the ever popular;
“What, you mean this is it? Practice the same damned moves over and over and over in different combinations and it’s all just a bunch of fucking hard work?”
I actually had a guy in my karate school who had been a green belt for two solid years. Because he sucked and was completely incapable of learning and mastering basic technique. I was one in a very long line of students who passed him by and then was assigned to attempt to tutor him as part of my brown belt requirements. I didn’t fare any better than any of the others. After more than two years and scores of hours of one-on-one help, he still couldn’t manage to throw a simple punch properly, not to mention anything more complicated.
** As per your statement on basic costs. People who complain about the cost of things usually have ZERO clue about basic economics and overhead costs. Like when someone I knew complained about prices at the grocery store and I pointed out (from public records) that they paid about $250,000 in property taxes alone each year, and then what do you think all those refrigerators and lights cost to run, and what about paying the people who work there?
Wow, you seem experienced, however I’m not sure your posts match it.
There’s this thing called a “reasonable price”. While that’s not always fixed, there are limits. And $100 per month is known to be that limit. Good schools will teach at well under that, for example my school, which is actually a little bit on the expensive side. There are a lot of good Do Jangs out there that are not even charging $50/month such as the one that April R was talking about.
In fact here’s the source that states this. Now this isn’t a major sign. Even that source labels this as a “moderate flag”, but it is something to negatively take note of.
Actually, look at their credentials:
Two years is a joke. The absolute minimum is 3.5 years, and it takes someone to work their asses off to even get it in four years. There is no set time, but you can take an average of anything, and that average is about 5-7 years, maybe 4, but not less than that.
Actually, if you look in the Kukkiwon’s regulations, they say that the minimum age requirement for a first dan is 15 years. If the child is under that age, they can substitute it with a “poom” belt (cite at Article 8). The reason here is because kids simply do not have the motor skills to have the skill of a full-fledged first dan black belt. A black belt is supposed to represent a capability of self-defense on the street (as well as discipline, maturity, etc. that kids don’t have. Actually I don’t have it either, but I’m not a black belt ;)). I don’t think a 10 year old can can defend him/herself against a street fighter.
Really? My school charges $25/test for low belts, and $35/test for high belts. Also, people that have attended good schools have said the same. Belt tests are usually done at an average of $30/month. $65/month is a bad joke. Sorry, but you have trained in a McDojo. It shows that they are full of it and are interested in the profit. It is evident how bad they want to make money.
The whole purpose of full-contact sparring is to give the closest representation of your skills on the street. Point sparring is completely useless in that aspect. While, I’m not as against it as the source I cited, I also believe that full-contact sparring is a vital part of training.
Actually, a lot of the things he/she said have been said on other sources too. Are you sure you’re not the one brainwashed by the McDojos (not meant as an insult)? My arguments are based on months worth of research from many sources including informative websites, Answers! pages, forums, and YouTube videos. Almost all of them more or less say what I’m saying, and their arguments are very logical. That source even said, that every style has good schools, and they even explained what a good school should exhibit. So I don’t know how exactly you can argue against that.
That statement is bullshit. Business is business. Reasonable price is the meeting place of what the business needs to charge to stay open and the amount that its customers are willing to pay. Any clown who thinks that $100 a month is the top limit for martial arts instruction does not know anything about basic business.
Okay, let’s back that up with some reality. Please post cites from UNBIASED sources that prove that one cannot earn a Black Belt in two years.
The Kukkiwon is not the be-all and end-all of Taekwondo. Most Taekwondo practitioners these days ignore the KKW for a number of reasons. And do you seriously think a kid is gonna go pick a fight with a so-called street fighter? Really?
On that statement, amigo, I will call you a bald-faced liar. Either that, or someone who is totally ignorant and talking out his ass. I have trained in that school since 1987 and have been the chief instructor of the school since 1994. I don’t recall seeing you as a student in that school.
Son, don’t presume to tell me how my school is run. I know how it is run, because I’m the one running it. And the rates I charge are very reasonable for my clientele.
The so-called mythical “street”. Ah, yes, the source of so much inspiration. Your skills gotta be great on the street…you gotta be able to out-fight a street fighter…and tons more hogwash like that. Here’s a newsflash for you, son - there ain’t no such thing as “the street”. Martial arts training does not teach you to go looking for trouble, simply to prove that you are Billy Badass. When two people fight, two people get hurt.
What martial arts training will do for you, if it is taught correctly, is to teach you how to NOT fight. It will teach you how to control your environment and present yourself as someone who gets passed over when the bad guy starts profiling for potential victims. It will teach you to walk away from someone who is trying to provoke you into a fight. And when the rare instance happens when the bad guy doesn’t get the message, it will give you a set of skills that will slant the odds in your favor.
You’re not aware of much, then, I am afraid. Months of research on the web and Youtube…geesh. Son, forget your so-called research. Get out on the floor, bust your ass, sweat like a pig, work your basics and do that for most of your life. When you do, you’ll understand why people like me snicker at people like you.
No, that’s not correct. We don’t really snicker at you. We laugh out loud.
Gotta love the way this kid thinks his months, MONTHS I TELL YOU, worth of research on the intertubes makes him him an all-knowing expert. And then he wonders why he catches so much shit, here.
My head just hit the desk. Are you seriously questioning a 6th degree black belt, TKD school instructor, and soon to be Master. Who the heck do you think you are? Your lack of humility and humbleness is disheartening. Now that I know you are 15, I understand the snotty attitude, but I sure as hell don’t have to accept it. You aren’t learning anything about respecting your elders from your training, that is for sure.
Someone needs to pit you for your snotty, know it all attitude. It won’t be me, because I am already over it, but you are a being a serious snot, and you will suffer the social consequences accordingly.
Statements like this are completely absurd. There is no business on Earth that is so predictable and static that you can give absolute limits on reasonable rates and fees; prices always vary based on location, fluctuations of the market, location, inflation, location, competition, and location. Did I mention location? It’s kind of important. Let’s take your statement and try it out on, oh, let’s say, apartment rentals.
“You should never spend more than $700 a month on a 1 bedroom apartment! Anyone who does is trying to rip you off!” This might be a fair statement in, say, Tampa. Or Las Vegas. At least right now, it might be. In San Francisco or Boston, you probably couldn’t find a cardboard box under a freeway overpass for that price. At least, right now you couldn’t; I know SF has a bit of a construction boom going on at the moment, so who knows what the market will be like in five years. The only judgment you really can make on price is if a given price is reasonable for a particular good/service at a particular time in a particular place—and even that depends on the person (reasonable or unreasonable is evaluated by potential buyers all the time depending on their individual circumstances). Making prima facie value judgments about the quality of service provided by a business is fine; everyone does it. But telling a guy you’re having a conversation with that he must operate a substandard business because he’s charging too much, when literally the only thing you know about said business is the price, is an unbelievably churlish thing to do. I mean, I’m sure your months of Internet research are wonderful and all that and you’ve learned a lot, but it’s possible your absolute, hard-and-fast figure is out of date or only valid for certain areas with certain costs of living, don’t you think?