I don’t see it as “advanced.” Rather more like “maintained.” I believe there is a subtle, yet legally justifiable difference.
I, too, slant toward the agnostic/atheist end of the spectrum, but the chaplaincy in the military doesn’t bother me a bit. If it really bothers you, then think of it this way: People in the military pay taxes, too (unless they’re in a war zone, and also unless things have changed since I was in the military). They’re paying for it themselves.
Monty…I had a look at the Mormon links you gave, as well as the army service links:
Wow. I had no idea. That site seems straight off of some church website, complete with prayer links and all kinds of things. Anyone who believes there is separation of Church and State needs to see that site. The most powerful armed force on the face of the earth openly and proudly supports religion. The text is all written in such a way that it assumes the existence and need for "God " is a given. Amazing. To say that I am aghast is an understatement.
again…wow.
holy crap.
holy crap indeed.
Dude, I’m talking about your worldview here. Fit me into your worldview. My point being, if support for chaplains were a simple binary litmus test for religious bigotry, my position would not fit.
I can’t speak for today’s Army; but when I went to boot camp, we weren’t allowed to have “Atheist” on our dog tags. “No Preference” was required for non-believers. During basic, we weren’t “required” to attend services on Sundays, those who elected not to go were provided with some really unpleasant and pointless chore to do instead. I hope it’s changed because 25 or so years ago the Army most certainly did enforce religion on us, at least during training.
Not true at all.
Opposition to chaplains is only possible due to anti-religious bigotry. There’s no logical reason that the converse of that is also true. Just because there is only one reason for opposition to chaplains does not preclude there being multiple reasons for support of chaplains.
Just as there can only be one reason for opposing blacks having the right to vote, there are MULTIPLE independent reasons that could be had for supporting that right.
Well, you do financially support military chaplains if you live in the United States, or the UK. I don’t know about the rest of the western world but I wouldn’t be surprised if many of them had chaplain services also.
You don’t really have a choice in the matter. Nor do you, as an anti-religious bigot, deserve one.
Did you just compare yourself to Martin Luther King Jr. as a means of defending your kneejerk caveman bigotry?
I . . . I . . . I . . . the level of boggle this does to my mind is taking me to a place I’ve never been before. I . . . I want to go to bed and start this day over.
Dude, I have long considered you to be an ignorant, bigoted jerk. Almost everything you have ever posted here, that I have not managed to avoid, has served to reinforce that impression. This, however, puts you in a new light of surreal.
Please tell me this is a joke or I fear I must spend some time in a hospital.
I certainly know what its like to have an unpopular world view, and be truly passionate about it. From experience I can tell you that lashing out only serves to rob you and your cause of credibility, particularly on this board. Makes for entertaining reading though.
By the way, I really am an anti-religious bigot. You are correct in your assertion. I hope I can change, perhaps I can be on Morgan Spurlock’s 30 days and go live with a bunch of Christians and go to church every other day for a month … oh wait… I did that for the first 20 years of my life! Oh well.
Civilians go on submarines quite regularly. There were 17 civilian technicians on board Thresher when she was lost.
As to the security question that was raised by someone in one post about “Chaplains being around the discussion of sensitive matters,” many civilians have the highest of possible security clearances. So far as I can tell, during the cold war the military didn’t have all that good a record on keeping secrets. Some of them sold out to the Soviets for paltry sums.
It sure didn’t with me. I was in basic training in 1971. I was a squad leader, and I was told that all of the required cleaning, waxing, buffing, etc., would need to be done regardless of church attendance.
So, rather than go to church, we moppped, buffed and polished–just like any other day.
After basic, nobody gave a damn if you went to church or not.
You are talking about people are are effectively part of the military without being in its conventional ranks. You could change the paystub and move around the classifications but it would still be the same thing. The military still need officers that provide the other services of Chaplain. It wouldn’t do that much to recruit non-military members with a high-level ministry and management background, screen them for security, move them to a remote outpost, and monitor them the same as anyone else while providing housing, food, shelter, and supplies.
Chaplains are officers that have many more duties than running a generic Sunday service. People keep ignoring that. They are officers that provide Chaplain duties that include providing a service to military personell that want them
I suspect that we have just hit on an issue that is so fringe that of, 300 million people in the U.S., 50% of its support comes from the SDMB.
Because there’s nothing in the Constitution about getting dessert after dinner. You’re not really this dense, are you? I mean, this is some sort of Socratic thing and it’s not actually you being this dumb for real, right?
Say it once, say it a dozen times, it’s still false and you’re still a fucking moron.
You can’t argue the moral or theoretical stance, because you backed yourself into the mother of all corners with your very first asshole statement and rather than just admitting that you were wrong or simply disappearing from the thread, you’re assholishly clinging to your bullshit.
No one’s ignoring any of that. I’ve posted more than once about the importance of maintaining the secular functions now performed by chaplains.
Here here!
If it eases the minds of our soldiers, I’m all for it. Let them tell the troops that purple fairies from Mars love them and will reward them with eternal life if they follow orders.
Only because you’re rabidly anti-religion, anti-military, and anti-authority.
These people already hold these beliefs. Only deliberate avoidance of the situation can shield you from the fact that many religious people find comfort in religious advice.
What would you prefer to tell the soldiers who we’re about to put in harm’s way? “There’s no God, no Heaven, and if you die you’re just dead. Now charge that machine gun nest.”
I’m sure that would do wonders for morale.
Then simply consider that the chaplains are being paid for their secular functions and throwing in their religious service for free. Problem solved.
Regards,
Shodan
So Zoe’s pro-religion stance which also opposes the chaplain program is…
Are you doing any thinking, or just foaming at the mouth and baiting people with these obvious lies? Why not actually address the reasons people have given in this thread rather than being an honorless tool?
Coward.
Prove why thinking that there should be seperation between church and state is a bigoted position? You can’t do it, can you? You just want to stir shit up and piss people off with your mindless drivel, eh?
Point to any statements made here that are bigoted.
Or stop being an inflamatory fool and actually debate in good faith.
What is wrong with you? Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you? You have the nerve to compare yourself to MLK? Are you on drugs, or just very, very stupid?
Saying that people believe in the seperation of church and state is not a bigoted position. You and other religious people are not under attack because some folks don’t believe in the government funding religion.
Wannabe-martyr schmuck.
But that’s not the truth.
That’s a rather…bizarre stance. Heroin (nitpick: no “e”; a heroine is the feminine form of hero) and cocaine are addictive drugs which can drastically impede physical and psychological performance, can prove fatal even at “normal” doses and are illegal. The same, generally, cannot be said for religion.
Look, I’m an atheist. A hard atheist, in fact. I have no use for religion, organized or otherwise and it is my personal belief that those who believe in a God are self-deluded and irrational–this doesn’t mean I look down on religious folks; please don’t take it as such. I am, additionally, morally opposed to unnecessary warfare, including the current action in the Mideast. However, I’m also a realist, and as such, I recognize three important things:
[ul][li]War is sometimes necessary, even if it is morally repugnant. We could not be a sovereign nation, with all the freedoms we now enjoy, otherwise.[/li][li]In order to maintain the way of life to which we are accustomed, a standing army is required.[/li][li]Most soldiers are religious, and their religion comforts them and boosts their morale. Happy soldiers preform their duties better than miserable ones.[/ul][/li]Given all of that, the expense of the military Chaplain service seems a small price to pay. I’m all for separation of Church and State, but that’s not an issue here. The Chaplain service tenders to all religions and does not support any one religion over the others. It provides a comfort to soldiers doing a highly stressful and dangerous job; a job without which we would not have the very document some of you here are using to argue against the military Chaplain service. You can’t have it both ways, folks.
It’s a comforting lie, which given the theme of the thread is hardly an inapposite attitude.
There’s no “cause” here. The issue of military chaplains is settled, they are never going away, and there’s nothing you can ever do about it. For me to have a “cause” would mean that there’s some sort of issue at hand, this isn’t an issue. It’s like saying one has a “cause” when one recognizes that the United States is never going to change its flag to an orange and black triangle.
Also, the majority of this board is nothing but the representation of the worst and most despicable section of America. Degenerates, the mentally ill, the unwashed masses of extreme leftism that are literally a cancer upon mainstream society. The more credible I’m held by a bunch of degenerates the worse off I am as a person.